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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 08:39:46 PM »
sigh...  What a moron (Tiger, not Steve!)...

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 10:35:50 PM »
I was in Asheville this weekend for a wedding.  My wife and I had a look at the billboards of Tiger talking about "inspiration".  We both had a snicker.  What is the over under of Tiger's course in NC being finished?

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 10:46:45 PM »
Maybe the DONALD will purchase it and add it to his ever growing course portfolio!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

John Moore II

Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 10:55:09 PM »
Just another sign of the economy. I thought I had heard before though that the project in Dubai was going to be completed. The Cliffs development in Asheville might just be on hold.  What about the other course he was supposed to build on the Pacific in Mexico?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 11:06:27 PM »
Tiger's problem is that the only way to pay his fee is to hire him to do a course as part of a big housing-development project.  And there just aren't many more housing development projects in the world right now.

John Moore II

Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 11:07:34 PM »
Tiger's problem is that the only way to pay his fee is to hire him to do a course as part of a big housing-development project.  And there just aren't many more housing development projects in the world right now.

It said in the article his fee was in the neighborhood of $20 million. Don't you wish you could get half that par project?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 11:12:23 PM »
Tiger's problem is that the only way to pay his fee is to hire him to do a course as part of a big housing-development project.  And there just aren't many more housing development projects in the world right now.

It said in the article his fee was in the neighborhood of $20 million. Don't you wish you could get half that par project?

of course it would be nice if Tiger built and designed some public courses, esp in lower income areas if possible, and waived his fee...but dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, evern from the "new" ::) Tiger
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 11:15:26 PM »

of course it would be nice if Tiger built and designed some public courses, esp in lower income areas if possible, and waived his fee...but dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, evern from the "new" ::) Tiger

Actually, Paul, there are a lot of guys trying to make a living at designing golf courses who hope that Tiger will not choose that particular way to rehab his image.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 11:21:16 PM »
Maybe the DONALD will purchase it and add it to his ever growing course portfolio!

Seems like he already has....

""We hired Tiger because our property owners wanted to lay claim to the number one golf experience in the world," says James Anthony, founder and chief executive of Cliffs. Woods received a reported $10 million for his fee."
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 11:23:07 PM »
I like this quote too....

"The two reasons golf courses fail is that almost no one does basic demographic research, and developers and lenders get starry-eyed by the name of the designer," says Jerry P. Sager, a managing director at First National of America, a privately owned financial holding company whose main asset is loans to golf course owners. Sager says that a name architect helps sell real estate during the first year of a project. After that sales look like those at any other development.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 11:26:10 PM »

of course it would be nice if Tiger built and designed some public courses, esp in lower income areas if possible, and waived his fee...but dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, evern from the "new" ::) Tiger

Actually, Paul, there are a lot of guys trying to make a living at designing golf courses who hope that Tiger will not choose that particular way to rehab his image.

i can understand that Tom....

but it would still be nice if he did something like i mentioned, or at least financed soemthing like it...

i guess i'm most upset at all his talk about becoming a better person seems like a bunch of bs, at least to this point in time

end of rant

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2010, 12:06:19 AM »
I found it interesting that Mickelson has 5 courses in development in China.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 12:11:31 AM »

of course it would be nice if Tiger built and designed some public courses, esp in lower income areas if possible, and waived his fee...but dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, evern from the "new" ::) Tiger

Actually, Paul, there are a lot of guys trying to make a living at designing golf courses who hope that Tiger will not choose that particular way to rehab his image.

i can understand that Tom....

but it would still be nice if he did something like i mentioned, or at least financed soemthing like it...

i guess i'm most upset at all his talk about becoming a better person seems like a bunch of bs, at least to this point in time

end of rant



Why do you think that would make him a better person?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2010, 07:05:57 AM »

of course it would be nice if Tiger built and designed some public courses, esp in lower income areas if possible, and waived his fee...but dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, evern from the "new" ::) Tiger

Actually, Paul, there are a lot of guys trying to make a living at designing golf courses who hope that Tiger will not choose that particular way to rehab his image.

i can understand that Tom....

but it would still be nice if he did something like i mentioned, or at least financed soemthing like it...

i guess i'm most upset at all his talk about becoming a better person seems like a bunch of bs, at least to this point in time

end of rant



Why do you think that would make him a better person?

would be giving back to the game
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:19:09 AM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 07:18:21 AM »
I like this quote too....

"The two reasons golf courses fail is that almost no one does basic demographic research, and developers and lenders get starry-eyed by the name of the designer," says Jerry P. Sager, a managing director at First National of America, a privately owned financial holding company whose main asset is loans to golf course owners. Sager says that a name architect helps sell real estate during the first year of a project. After that sales look like those at any other development.

Mike,

Have you ever heard of a feasibility study that said NO DON'T BUILD IT BECAUSE IF YOU DO THEY WON'T COME. I have heard that if you ask the feasibility study folks to provide you a sample of a study that they said NO to, they can't even produce one. Maybe that has changed since I last heard that story three years ago.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 07:51:54 AM »
From TW perspective, I would think that the other big disaster would be the other article, saying JN and AP have taken back the lead as celeb endorsers in golf.  That was his big income off course.


I appreciate the quote from Jerry Sager for reasons similar to Mike N.

Brad,

I had the occaison to hire a feasibilty company (who I knew and respected) as a sub on a big team deal, and having worked with them before, was surprised to hear the first ten minutes of their presentation was a dissertation on how much more sophisicated their process had become since the last study I saw. It was almost apologetic.

But, it was also true. Because of low dollar volume, golf has never had as sophisticated study methods as real estate.  NGF started them as far as I knew.  At one time, there was the simple rule of 1 public course for every 50,000 people.  Later, they came out with better local data, since some states participate at 13% and others have golf particpation rates of 8 or 9% which could be a 50% difference in rounds.

I have seen a few that say no, BTW. Or, at least say no if you read between the lines.  Usually, they say "yes, if" and there are oodles of unlikely things that have to happen.  Some disguise the unlikeliness with flowery language, like the one I read years ago that only mentioned that there was no water for the project in the summary.

I only know of a few lawsuits against feasibility companies, and would imagine contracts are written to limit liability for being paid to make a guess at the future.  I would also support that, in that a lot of things beyond the control of the feasibility guys have to be done right for anyone wanting to play a course, including design, marketing, maintenance, etc.  But, I agree there have been a few studies that probably warrant some legal action and maybe the guys presenting to me were a target of one of those suits, which forced them to rethink their basic mentality about the whole process.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dave Falkner

Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 08:00:54 AM »
This might be an indication of my lack of knowledge but how can it be bad for Tiger if he got paid those giant fees?  Granted it seems these courses may not see a single player  but tiger got his fee already

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 08:30:11 AM »
I was in Asheville this weekend for a wedding.  My wife and I had a look at the billboards of Tiger talking about "inspiration".  We both had a snicker.  What is the over under of Tiger's course in NC being finished?

I drove through Asheville recently and probably saw the same billboards you mention. Regardless of Tiger's personal issues they were way over the top.


I agree with Tom Doak in that I'm not sure this is really Tiger's fault as so much as it's just a housing development course planned for an area that can't support another one, and without housing the community can't support his huge fee.


I will say that I do hope some of these courses get built because from a GCA perspective I'm at least curious to see how they turn out. His course in Mexico actually looked like it had a ton of potential as the site looks great.
H.P.S.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 12:44:25 PM »
Remember when High Carolina was to be "walking only."

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »
This might be an indication of my lack of knowledge but how can it be bad for Tiger if he got paid those giant fees?  Granted it seems these courses may not see a single player  but tiger got his fee already

Makes it a bit harder to justify the fee next time 'round...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2010, 09:39:52 AM »
Why would the business of golf be any different the the business of real estate?  A golf course is a commercial real estate venture which requires demographic research to address price point, marketing, consturction and property management to be successful long term. 

The commercial & residential real estate markets are soft - how may new office buildings are being constructed in cities across the US -not many as lenders are reluctant and tenants are negotiateing great renewal rates with their existing landlords, who are happy to keep them.  Until their is some economic growth the market will continue to be soft.

Dave Falkner

Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »
This might be an indication of my lack of knowledge but how can it be bad for Tiger if he got paid those giant fees?  Granted it seems these courses may not see a single player  but tiger got his fee already

Makes it a bit harder to justify the fee next time 'round...

with the contraction in the industry no one is going get the giant fees for a while

John Moore II

Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 09:22:45 PM »
I was in Asheville this weekend for a wedding.  My wife and I had a look at the billboards of Tiger talking about "inspiration".  We both had a snicker.  What is the over under of Tiger's course in NC being finished?

I drove through Asheville recently and probably saw the same billboards you mention. Regardless of Tiger's personal issues they were way over the top.


I agree with Tom Doak in that I'm not sure this is really Tiger's fault as so much as it's just a housing development course planned for an area that can't support another one, and without housing the community can't support his huge fee.


I will say that I do hope some of these courses get built because from a GCA perspective I'm at least curious to see how they turn out. His course in Mexico actually looked like it had a ton of potential as the site looks great.

I was wondering about the course in Mexico as well.

I think the course in Asheville will be finished eventually. The Cliffs is a very large development and they will be able to build the additional course. The course in Dubai is another story. That city/nation is on the verge of a major, major crash, worse than they've seen so far. Who knows about the one in Mexico.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tiger's Other Disaster...TW Design
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 10:15:16 PM »
Actually, now that John mentions it, I think the business plan for Tiger Woods Design may be a tough one.

The only way you can command fees higher than everyone else is to be building in markets that are overheated, where someone feels like they need to trump the competition [small "t", no pun intended] with an even bigger name ... and those are precisely the markets, like Dubai, that are most likely to blow up while you're still on the launching pad.

Meanwhile, if the market is not yet saturated, it's less easy to justify paying Tiger 5 to 10 times as much as all the usual suspects, if some of them have yet to build a course in the area.