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Mike Cirba

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2002, 08:31:42 PM »
On such a flat sight, where are all of the manmade features to create framing, direct the eye, and provide definition?????

I know I've read on here, courtesy of professional architects, that those elements are absolutely NECESSARY in modern design.

You fellas had all that land and earth at your disposal....no housing considerations and plenty of time on site...so I have to ask...what WENT WRONG???

Where are the containment mounds??

Where are the out of play bunkers that let the player know where to aim???

Where are the water features????

Where are the greensites that allow the player to see the ball land and stop quickly?????

Where are the visually obvious strategies that let the first time player learn everything there is to know about a golf hole at a single glance??????

I'm sorely disappointed.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2002, 08:57:02 PM »
Don't need to buy GD's best new course mag, we might have already seen them here on GCA. FH and RC :) :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2002, 09:35:22 PM »
Dan, about 2 years ago, a series of pictures of the Rustic Canyon land were posted here and on Bravenet depicting the typical lay of the land in several key spots along the route of the valley floor where the golf course now resides.  Many commented that it looked really flat and unremarkable and just a flat floor of native brush and scrub plants.  I confess I was one that thought it didn't look too sexy.  But, I have looked at land that the eye says appears flat with a trained design builder and saw that fellow get really turned on by what appears unremarkable and flat.   They know that just turning over the native and working it in the natural soil where sandy conditions occur or burning it or clearing out the brush without compromising what appears to be flat will yield plenty of humps and rolls that just seem to jump out of the ground once seedbed is prep'd and turf gets established.  The sheen and grain of cut turf, or morning dews, and evening shadows will bring that plain old ground to a life of mysterious nooks and crannies, mounds and moguls that are indeed as irratic and varied as mother nature created them (not wavy gravy artificially graded out to the max).  It is something about the frequency of the ground as mother nature offers that is very hard to duplicate on a dozer by shapers.  Those that have that talent to augment, imitate or collaborate with nature and blend what man and mother nature have a hard time seperating as to which is which are invaluable artists.  I bet that long time ranchers and users of that valley floor will have a hard time descerning just what was augmented and graded out in any elevation and contour change and what was just turned over and grassed over on many areas of that course. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2002, 10:56:40 PM »
Dan,
 I have walked the course twice and I haven't seen any pictures that do the course justice yet. You get a little of the feel of how good the bunkering is in a few shots, but the bunkering is very interesting and quite varied. The contour in and around the green is exceptional, but you would have to see it in person to appreciate it I think. The overall layout of the course is a sort of boomerang shape, with the canyon being wide enough for two holes side by side, but Gil et al. found a few places to cross over holes and change the angles of the wind to keep it interesting. The course will be worth the trip I assure you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

redanman

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2002, 11:52:06 PM »

Quote
The hole by hole yardages are:
1- 542                  10-564
2- 468                  11-434
3- 338                  12-356
4- 170                  13-578
5- 550                  14-473
6- 226                  15-152
7- 359                  16-468
8- 131                  17-188
9- 571                  18-446





This to me is an intriguing set of distances and flow.  I in contradistinction to Matt Ward like the shorter lengths of the par 3's. Well done short par 3's are soely lacking from modern architecture.  Wasn't that the point of a previoius thread?  131 and 152, yipee.  (One COULD ask  Why a par 3 over  200?)  Where has this kind of hole gone? Three Par 4's 350ish and less  and 5 ball busters (For all but Matt) over 435.  Also, no D 7-iron par 5's.

Nice detail work.  Look forward to seeing it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2002, 04:16:21 AM »
We've talked, discussed, argued a lot in the recent past about what it means and what it looks like to tie architectural features into the nature of a site, the basic natural look of a site and to really use in the finished work what a site offers before the architects got there.  

Just study some of those architectural lines particularly the broad and flowing horizontal lines and the lines of the natural topography both close, medium and far and how the architecture and the architectural lines tie into it and its natural look. And also how some of that bunkering mimics what you find on the photo of the raw site. Particularly the last large photo I think it is! Really good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2002, 06:34:18 AM »
Fellows, this is all great stuff - input from the ARCHITECTS (there's a point in those caps) themselves is one of the things that makes GCA great.

BUT... no one's really answered my question.

WHEN CAN I PLAY THE FREAKIN' COURSE????

I'm not kidding that the moment the word is given, I hop in the car.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2002, 06:43:38 AM »
Tom,
     Geoff said above that the opening is slated for late April.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2002, 07:02:45 AM »
I know, Scott.  "Late April" is not specific enough.  I know, I ask a lot.  But we're gonna be within 200 miles or so for the Barona gig... It would be damn easy to head to Rustic after that for me...

SO CAN I PLAY IT ON MONDAY APRIL 22?

I'm a demanding bastard.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2002, 07:21:01 AM »
Correction,
Spoon not Brassie.
However the point is that with yardages of 170,226,131,152 and 188 the balance is wonderful.
Yancey
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2002, 07:44:21 AM »
Hello everyone ...

Just a few responses.

The course looks great and I'm really looking forward top seeing it when I get out to the LA area later this year. Congrats to Gil, Geoff and all involved.

As far as par-3's are concerned why not just one more long par-3? Guys, are we making the suggestion that "real" par-3's must be on the short side? When four out of five holes are BELOW 190 yards I think it's a fair question.

Gil, appreciate your info on the rationale of the three long par-4's on the back nine. But, if two of them have downhill features (#16 and #18) included are they really long??? Pete Dye is very smart in designing long par-4's that actually play somewhat uphill (not mountain climbing guys before any of you jump down my throat!) in order to force players to hit longer approaches into the target. Also, when three long holes of this type play in the same general direction does that adequately anticipate wind direction to ensure that not all of the holes either play downwind or into a headwind or the same type of crosswind?

Brad, SPDB and Pat -- appreciate your posts. I can tell you from my many visits across the USA that the zeal to build short par-3's is not lost in todays design. The problem is that you often get courses with par-3's that fall anywhere from 170-190 and that's it. Heck, I can say with some sort of confidence that designing a really fine long par-3 is not a part of modern design. Isn't the ability to hit a long iron or even a wood into par-3 an element of one's ability to play the game no less than hitting a crisp short iron into a well framed protected green. Or is the reason that people wince in having two long par-3's in a round (beyond 200 yards) is a case of there inability to handle that type of demand with their own games in mind?

I mean how many times must one play the tired and boring downhill par-3 with a pond in front of the green and bunkers flanking the target. Hello ... been there and seen it ... yawn, yawn, yawn. For those fortunate to have played Barona Creek (CA) the long par-3 3rd hole is a great example in how you can have a hole and still be able to test all types of shotmaking. Name any great course and you can be sure the long par-3 is part of that design in a balanced manner. I just think when you have five par-3's in a design and only one is beyond 190 yards it's a fair point to raise in my opinion.

Still would like to know if future elasticity has been anticipated with the design. Also, how is the general land at Rustic Canyon superior to what one finds at Lost Canyons?  

I also wonder how the five par-5's differ? Is there risk and reward elements for long hitters to give it a go in their second shots on a few of them?

One last question -- no par-4's between 360 yards and 433 yards ... does the mid-length par-4 have a role?

Please realize I'm just trying to learn because from the times I've played previous Gil designs (Inniscrone, Tallgrass) I've really enjoyed them and I'm looking forward to playing RC this year.

Thanks. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2002, 07:50:15 AM »
Matt,
    That is a good question about the lack of mid-length par 4's.  I've played some courses that had nothing BUT mid-length par 4's.  BORING.  Still, Rustic has 8 par 4's and the yardages are:

338, 356, 359

and

434, 446, 468, 468, 473.

Interesting discrepency.  Obviously, prevailing wind direction and elevation change aren't accounted for.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Curious JJ

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2002, 08:04:01 AM »
Yes sir! Whats with all the short par-3's?!?  A bunch Nancy-boys if you ask me!!

Look at all the great courses in the world that have several 200+ yard holes?!?? At least I think there are....come to think of it.....I need a little help on that one Mathew.

Bring it on bitch!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2002, 08:36:26 AM »
Matt,
I'd hold off on putting too much into those yardages for a few reasons. One, as Gil pointed out, those aren't the SCGA lasered numbers, so I haven't put too much faith in their accuracy, in fact, I would guess a few will get lowered by anywhere from 30 to 50 yards, a few are short by 15-30 yards, and a few are close...the par-3's are the only ones that are accurate. Second, they just don't mean much when you factor in the terrain and wind. The up-canyon holes play significantly longer and of course the down canyon holes will see a lot more roll. So some of the short 4's play shorter (#12 is driveable), 7 plays uphill and closer to a mid-4 you were wondering about, and 18 probably plays like a mid 4 (the 446 must have been measured from the ladies tee on 11!?!). Either way the entire routing was dictated by the terrain, so we chose the sequencing and the clubhouse site based on the land and hopefully you'll get a full variety of shots.

The terrain is quite different from Lost Canyons. Envision holes 5 and 6 on the first course (Sky?). That's a bit more like Rustic's front nine. It's on a sandy canyon floor though, with a dry washing running down the middle. The picture above shows the front nine where it's narrower, the back really opens up, which hopefully gives us two somewhat distinct nines.
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2002, 10:40:09 AM »
Tom Huckaby,  IF you come down 101, I'll be on the side of the highway near Salinas with my thumb out and my clubs by my side.  Please pick me up. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2002, 10:45:59 AM »
Sounds good to me, JV!  Can ya tell I kinda WANT to play this course?   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2002, 12:10:04 PM »
I have more great stuff on Rustic Canyon!  Here's an excellent interview of Geoff Shackelford in today's Ventura County Star, except for the erroneous inclusion of Tom Doak in the design.  Ben Crenshaw has seen Rustic and had good things to say.  How about those VERY moderate projected green fees!

----------------------------------------
It's only natural

DESIGN: Rustic Canyon, a new course in Moorpark, complements, doesn't dominate its surroundings.

By Bob Buttitta, Staff writer

Geoff Shackelford probably feels like a first-time parent waiting for the big day to arrive.
Shackelford's baby is the soon-to-be-completed Rustic Canyon Golf Course in Moorpark, which is scheduled to open in a few months. It marks the first golf course that Shackelford has helped design.

The son of Lynn Shackelford, who operates Sinaloa Golf Course in Simi Valley, Shackelford is well versed on golf architecture, having written five books on golf course design.

So when Rustic Canyon architects Gil Hanse and Tom Doak asked him if he wanted to join the design team, Shackelford jumped at the chance to get his feet wet.

"It's been a great experience," Shackelford said. "Being involved on this level has given me a new appreciation for the architects that I really respect.

"I also realize how important it is to make the best use of a piece of property as possible. I gained an appreciation for the architects that seem to realize that, but I also realize how some designers don't take full advantage of the land they have. I feel like all of us involved with this project appreciate what a great piece of property we have had to work with."

Located in Happy Camp Canyon near Highway 118 and Moorpark College, the course owners and its designers agreed the best course of action was to use the area's natural beauty rather than try to create something artificial.

Instead of moving mountains of dirt to create the course, Hanse, who is based in Philadelphia, incorporated the natural lay of the land into his design to create a course that complements, rather than dominates, its surroundings.

The result is a golfer-friendly course that figures to be a fair test of golf for players of all abilities.

"Rustic Canyon offers everything that we look for in a raw piece of ground," Hanse said. "The subtle influences of the ground and the dramatic nature of the wash will offer us the ability to let the land dictate the strategy of the game.

"By blending our features with the natural vegetation, we can create a look that hearkens back to earlier golf course designs in Southern California."

Fairways are wide, averaging about 60 yards in width. Most holes offer players several options on how to attack it, letting players pick the option that matches their skill level.

For example, on the second hole, players have a choice of playing different fairways.

"Too many of the courses built these days force the player to hit a particular type of shot," Shackelford said. "Our goal with Rustic Canyon was to give players a chance to decide how they want to attack a hole.

"We have a lot of greens that allow a player to run a ball into the green rather than simply hitting a high wedge shot."

All three architects also like the idea of regular players having a home-course advantage. There are many holes where having played the course once or twice would allow a player to know things like what side of a fairway to avoid or where hidden traps or other hazards might be waiting.

While in Southern California to play in the SBC Classic at Valencia Country Club last week, Ben Crenshaw stopped by to look over the new course.

A noted historian of the game, Crenshaw told the course architects that he liked the course a lot.

"He liked the wide fairways and the fact that players have options on most every hole," Shackelford said. "The thing that made me most happy was that he really liked the greens.

"Ben Crenshaw is one of the great putters in golf, so for him to give our greens high marks means a lot to us."

Planned to range from nearly 7,000 yards to approximately 5,200 yards from the forward tees, the par-72 design features five par 5s and five par 3s.

While green fees are still to be set, it appears the averages will be about $35, including carts, on weekdays and $50, including carts, on weekends.

But golfers who prefer to walk will be able to do so because the course is basically flat.

It does have a lot of subtle undulations, both on the fairways and especially on the greens.

Shackelford said the idea behind the design is to take advantage of what the land had provided them.

"We have spent a great deal of time creating a routing that takes advantage of the features that are unlike anything I've seen in this area," Shackelford said. "People will have a hard time believing some of the existing swales and bumps and sand were natural."

Because the property is home to all types of wildlife, the developers have gone to great care to make sure that the wildlife inhabitants will still have a place to call home.

Shackelford said the company's willingness to restore native plant materials has made the project attractive to local environmentalists who have opposed previous attempts to build on the site.

"It's been a great project to be part of," Shackelford said. "We feel it will be a course that golfers will enjoy playing, not just once, but many times."

-- Bob Buttitta can be reached at bbuttitta@insidevc.com.



March 13, 2002


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2002, 12:20:28 PM »
Scott,
You have the quite the search engine there. How about that insight in the article, a Hanse and Doak design! :) I guess it's easy to get Jim Wagner and Tom Doak's names mixed up! Well, he did get the green fees right, and some of my quotes were sort of close...Naturally, I never correlated Ben's putting prowess with his eye for green complex design, but the writer did! It's always nice to see yourself quoted when the person writing wasn't taking notes. Golf writers...ah, writers in general! :)
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2002, 12:25:23 PM »
Will there be a discount for walkers?  ;D

Speaking of changing words for "poetic license" or whatever, I once won this monthly word contest in the Washington Post and the author quoted me as saying something I never said (and would never say!).   :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2002, 02:47:33 PM »
Please remember when viewing these images, the course is still go through grow-in. For me it is ready to play!



The 13th, with its Boomer green and the bunker "New Jersey"

The 14th Hole which the tee shot comes from the very left side of the fairway after the crossing of the ultra hazardous creek. Call it a "Cape-Extreme" if you will.

Scene of the 15th from a distance, across the canyon floor. The bunker work by Jim Wagner is pretty special here.


View from the 16th tee and then the approach in.

View from the 17th tee and its sandy-scrubby waste area.

Shot of the green surrounds at #1


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

DMoriarty

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2002, 03:42:47 PM »
Great pictures Tommy, but I am still not sure that I have seen pictures that do the course justice.  

One notable feature that I haven't seen clearly in any of the photos is the closely cut putting/chipping areas around some of the greens.  When I looked at the course (in January) the chipping areas made many of the greens to appear huge from a distance.  I was under the impression that they were going to maintain these chipping areas as almost an extension of the greens.  

For example, from the fairway (and from the canyon ridge), the green on 13 (see picture above) looks to be at least twice its actual size, with the bunker in front appearing to be right in the middle of the green.  It is a impressive and deceptive effect that doesnt really show up in the pictures.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great pics!
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2002, 03:47:28 PM »
The second/third shot strategy with the boomerang green and the forward bunker looks both original and AWESOME :o

Great property + Great design = Homerun for everyone, including the owners, the golfers, the locals, the architect, everyone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2002, 03:57:58 PM »
No Ran. Great for ME! (Its mine, all mine!)(OK, maybe an hour away, but still mine!)

(Remember this is all about ME! ME! ME!)

DMoriarity, The images really don't show the chipping areas OR the greens. Pretty cool isn't it! (they ar ein fact exactly as you have stated--the TE Paul Meld variety.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2002, 04:00:47 PM »
One other thing I would like to add.......

When Geoff took me out to the site for the first time, stepping up to what view what would be the eventual 16th tee, looking towards its fairway, the hole was basically already there. Alls it needed was some removing of brush, small shaping, and what you have is the most natural of golf holes there. Ready and waiting.

As far as I can tell, the only thing added was the bunkering in the phot, and I have to say that it is pretty impressive to see it in person. Another tribute to Jim Wagner.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Sneak a Peek at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2002, 05:34:17 PM »
Ran,
Glad you like the look of the boomerang, Tom Paul helped us sort that one out in the field. We had all sorts of ideas there and ended up shortening the hole after much debate, and of course Jim and Gil just loved the idea of a boomerang! I guess it's a little too California for them, but they've warmed to it I think!

DMoriarty,
When the green mowing height gets taken down, you should be able to delineate the green surface from the approach, but yes currently, they are very deceiving, maybe a touch more than I'd like in places. Jeff Hicks the superintendent grew the surrounds in beautifully and they are the same grass mix as the greens, and will hopefully stay tightly cut and firm, so there should be some fun shots around the greens, while also providing a more forgiving course for public play...at least, that's the idea!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »