[Morgan Clawson]

What an amazing course and a terrific profile.

Congrats!

[Ivan Lipko]

Seriously, where would you rank the OM compared to the other three courses at the Resort? Do you really think it is gonna be in the TOP100 rankings or remain a hidden gem for quite a while?

Ivan:

I would not profess to know where the course might wind up in the rankings.  However, I am fairly certain that the course will not remain a "hidden gem" for any length of time.  It already has more exposure than 95% of courses that have been open for five years.  So, whether it is ranked highly or not, the issue is going to be decided pretty quickly.

Thanks! I sometimes think it is better for a course not to be ranked at all, esp. when it is a public one.
Just look at what is happening to The Stadium Course at Sawgrass! When I played it in February half of the greens were covered with a black net  - there were so many people playing it that it got totally worn.

Also everybody seem to play two or three balls off every tee-box. The hype sometimes does bad things to golf.

Sorry, for the OT.

[Richard Choi]

I will be shocked if Old Macdonald is not within 10 places of Pacific Dunes in any ranking.

[Rick Shefchik]

One hopes that OM becomes the most influential golf course of the early 21st century. Golf like this needs to spread to areas outside Oregon, if at all possible.

[Tom_Doak]

Rick:

"Like that" how, exactly?

I ask because there are not many golf courses that can afford to maintain that much acreage of fairways or greens.

[Tim Pitner]

I will be shocked if Old Macdonald is not within 10 places of Pacific Dunes in any ranking.

I wonder if the extreme width of the fairways and size of the greens might be a turn-off to some, including raters.  I'm guessing that some of my playing partners wouldn't know what to make of Old MacDonald and it might take time for it to grow on them, if it ever did.  I talked recently to a guy (not a poster) who is a big enthusiast of the Bandon courses; he had played 11 holes at OM and when I asked him what he thought, he said he didn't enjoy it nearly as much as Pacific Dunes, which he loved.  I haven't played OM, but from photos, Pacific Dunes looks conventional compared to OM.  To me, it's similar to if the Old Course were built now--how would it be rated?  My guess is not very highly.  Of course, Doak and Co. do have a certain cache now which could help. 

[Richard Choi]

Tim, I guess OM will show who is the poser and who is a true afficianado when it comes to rating golf courses. If someone rates TOC high, but OM low, you know that guy is rating TOC high only because of its history.

[Rick Shefchik]

Rick:

"Like that" how, exactly?

I ask because there are not many golf courses that can afford to maintain that much acreage of fairways or greens.

Tom,

I was thinking specifically of the rolling nature of the contours, where the greens blend seamlessly into the fairways and the fairways are cut right up to the edges of the bunkers. I'd like to see more pot bunkers and sod-faced bunkers on U.S. courses, too. I understand that even on a smaller scale, maintaining fairways, bunkers and greens this way can be more difficult for the grounds crews, but they seem to be able to do it in GB/I.

While you can't produce OM's width of fairways and size of greens on smaller pieces of land, I think you can introduce this flavor to golfers who believe trees and thick green grass are the hallmarks of a good golf course. Look at the thread on Whistling Straits, for instance; I haven't played it, but from the photos, I think they got the skeleton right, but the flesh is wrong. I talked to a good player who came back from Whistling Straits last week raving about it. I can only imagine how much more he would have liked it if the grounds were maintained closer to Old Macdonald's standard.

[George Pazin]

Rick:

"Like that" how, exactly?

I ask because there are not many golf courses that can afford to maintain that much acreage of fairways or greens.

Would that be true if the courses were maintained more like those in the UK?

[Tom_Doak]

Richard:

On the contrary, I think the template holes at Old Macdonald allow many "posers" to profess a greater understanding of design than they may have.


Rick:

I really don't think Old Macdonald is being maintained much differently than any of the other three courses at Bandon.  It's newer and therefore more pure; and the fairways and greens don't have any colonial bentgrass in them, which helps a smidgeon with the look; but all of those courses are as firm and fast as can be.  The only real difference is that Old Macdonald has a handful more holes where we succeeded in encouraging players to try an approach that lands well short of the green.  As for pot bunkers with fairways and greens right up to the edges, I'd like to see a bit more of that in America, too, but I can't think of many places where it would be accepted.


George:

None of the UK courses have fairways as wide as Old Macdonald [or, for that matter, Pacific Dunes], and only one has greens anywhere near the size of Old Mac.  So, I'm not sure it's a good role model, even at UK levels of maintenance.  It would certainly improve the cost/benefit analysis, though.

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Tom. My knowledge of maintenance practices is sadly lacking - though not nearly as much as my knowledge of UK courses...

[Adam Clayman]

As for pot bunkers with fairways and greens right up to the edges, I'd like to see a bit more of that in America, too, but I can't think of many places where it would be accepted.

Perhaps worthy of it's own thread but here goes...

Tom,

Why do you think something as principled as having more gathering ability is unacceptable in the U S of A?

Is it, as Stephen Kay likes, the contrast in color of the longer grass?

Do you sense most architects care more about aesthetics than playability?

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing(s), but will do my best to answer your question.

My last post was just meant to suggest that not many owners / sites / climates are conducive to the pot bunker style.

Sod wall bunkers DO have the great advantage of a firm edge so that you can hang the mowers right over the lip of them and have no rough at all around the bunker.  But, sod walls have to be rebuilt periodically, and mowers have to go a lot more slowly and carefully to hang over the edges without crashing, so all of that adds a % to maintenance costs, as opposed to a wide collar of rough around the bunkers.  And most American courses are mowing their fairways MUCH more frequently than U.K. links, so the cost is magnified over here.

True, many American courses have seemed unconcerned about maintenance budgets in recent years, but even then, making the job easier for the crew is a big plus for the superintendent.

As for designing bunkers which gather balls, most of us do shy away from these.  Some would blame drainage issues, but I think that visibility is probably the real culprit.  St. Andrews has a lot of fairway bunkers that are difficult or impossible to see from the tee; the same feature would be highly unpopular in America.

[Colin Macqueen]

Folks,

Why would one shy away from designing bunkers that gather balls as long as they are visible from tee or fairway? Does Old Macdonald have a number of these or do the visible bunkers not have a tendency to gather in  balls turning up in their vicinity?

The Hielander

[Tom_Doak]

Colin:

The main reason Old Macdonald's bunkers tend to gather balls is simply that a drive will often run out 40-50 yards from where it lands.  Some of the bunkers do "gather" a bit, because there are quite a few big slopes out there; but mostly they just get in the way.

[Wade Schueneman]

Mr. Doak,

It is too bad that hidden bunkers are frowned upon in the states, because I think that the 12th at the Old Course would make a great template hole.  You could probably fit it on any flat, rumpled piece of land and then shape the green to include the middle plateau.  Have you ever been tempted to "borrow" from that hole?

[Jud_T]

Don't see why hidden bunkers are such a bad thing, particularly at a private club. 

[Tom_Doak]

Wade:

I've built three greens inspired by the 12th at St. Andrews:  the 7th at Riverfront, the 7th at The Rawls Course, and the 8th at The Renaissance Club.  The latter is probably the closest of them to the real one.

All of those holes have their fair share of fairway bunkering, but none of them have blind bunkers in the middle.  I cannot think of a client I've had who would have gone for that idea, apart from the couple who let me do whatever I wanted.

[Joe Bentham]

flat, rumpled piece of land

Huh?

[Phil McDade]

flat, rumpled piece of land

Huh?

Joe:

Part of the appeal of the 12th at TOC at St. Andrews is that the route from tee to green is flat -- that is, there is no dramatic change in elevation from tee to green (as opposed to, say, a course like Engineers). But the land itself from tee to green is quite rumpled. It has the appearance of being a relatively benign hole, but the rumples in the fairway hide the gathering fairway bunkers, so they are blind to the golfer from the tee. Nicklaus viewed the 12th as one of his favorite short par 4s in the world, because of its deceptive nature and the choice on the tee for the golfer about how to attack it.

The green is incredibly difficult -- a very tiny landing area. Tiger, the master of TOC, has often (with the right wind conditions) deliberately played driver off the tee, and gone over the green, to play at that green from the backside, which is much easier than a frontal approach.

[Wade Schueneman]

Phil did a great job of describing the 12th at the TOC.  I will only add that while a hole location on the plateau on the right side of the green makes for a testing shot for from the middle of the fairway, it is a VERY difficult shot if you thoughtlessly bomb it to the left with your driver ( which is the naturla tendancy as there is thick gorse to the right).  Then the you must play over a rise that bends diagonally away from you.  I bet that if you watch the Open several players will have to try that shot.

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