Pebble Beach 8-9-10: The 3 best par-4's in a row?

[Jim Hoak]

In the new SIGolf section of Sports Illustrated (June 28), there is a story about the 8th, 9th and 10th holes at Pebble Beach.  Tom Watson is quoted as saying that "My father always said Pebble Beach has the three best par-4s in a row in the world, the three toughest."  And Tom Doak is quoted, "Now people are starting to understand how good these holes are.  I can't imagine anyone who played Pebble not being overwhelmed by that stretch.  That's what you remember after playing the course the first time, not 17 and 18.  If 8, 9 and 10 were the closing holes, it would be the most famous finish in golf."
Can anyone come up with a better stretch of par-4's--or any holes for that matter?

[Carl Rogers]

The best property for 3 par 4's in a row for sure.

[Phil_the_Author]

I believe that 10-12 on Bethpage Black are tougher and could give them a run for their money as best three. The great advantage PB has is the ocean and cliffs with those three holes. That is what reallys sets them apart. I think there will be a number of three-hole mentions in coming posts that are the equal in either difiiculty or beauty... it is the combination that is daunting and deciding.

Now, if Tom meant they are the three best based upon their Difficulty, which the quote gives the impression, then 10-12 on the Black are better as they are tougher... In my opinion of course...

[Sean Leary]

12-14 at Cypress Point is close.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

I know you are a homer for the Black course, but none of the three holes at the Black is as interesting as the tenth at Pebble, to say nothing of the 8th or 9th. 

As to which is tougher, I don't know; I'll let a championship player decide that, since we're out of our depth there.  I'd guess there are tougher stretches than either of those, but who cares?

[Michael Taylor]

13 - 14 - 15 NSWGC would be up there, as would 14 - 15 - 16.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

Do you mean tougher, or better?

If you mean better, I'm wagering $100 that you have never played Pebble Beach.

[Michael Taylor]

I haven't played Pebble, so I'm not into a position to make comparisons. 14 - 15 - 16 might be tougher, but I'm not sure about 'better', and that term is quite subjective.

Just saying that these stretches would be right up there with the toughest in golf. I wouldn't say NSW is 'better' after seeing PB on TV however.

[Zack Molnar]

If the wind is into you on those three holes, it would be hard to find three tougher. Having to a long iron into 8 would be an extremely stern test, as would the sloping fairway lies of 9 and 10, with the fairways giving you more than a slight nudge toward hitting one into the pacific. Add on to this the incredible beauty of the ocean less than 40 yards away, and three tougher, more beautiful holes do not exist.

[Tony_Chapman]

How about any three hole combination of 7-12 at Sand Hills?

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

Bill and Ben would have a good laugh over that.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You misread what I wrote. I actually AGREED with the premise. "The great advantage PB has is the ocean and cliffs with those three holes. That is what reallys sets them apart. I think there will be a number of three-hole mentions in coming posts that are the equal in either difiiculty or beauty... it is the combination that is daunting and deciding..."

My point was that I don't know whether Watson was comparing "best" with "Difficult" as his quote semmed to be suggesting, in which case I disagree with him. First with 10-12 on the Black, and it has far more to do with familiarity than with being a homer, and I also believe there are other 3-hole stretches that are more difficult than Pebble's.

What sets those three at Pebble above all others is the combination of awe-inspiring beauty along with the dfifficulty of play under any conditions or from any set of tees.

[JNC Lyon]

My question mark in this three-hole stretch would be 8.  Having never played the course, this hole looks downright gimmicky on television.  If the ocean on the second shot were replaced with, say, tidal marsh, wouldn't most on this site consider the 8th a downright bad golf hole?

9 and 10, however, appear to have strategy, challenge and fun that make their playing characteristics match up to their clifftop setting.

[Jordan Wall]

My question mark in this three-hole stretch would be 8.  Having never played the course, this hole looks downright gimmicky on television.  If the ocean on the second shot were replaced with, say, tidal marsh, wouldn't most on this site consider the 8th a downright bad golf hole?

9 and 10, however, appear to have strategy, challenge and fun that make their playing characteristics match up to their clifftop setting.

Gimmicky?  Wrong. 

First of all, none of the "if it was this it would be that".  It's not tidal marsh, it's cliff and ocean because that is what the land presented, and it's wonderful.

While the drive is simple, the second shot is one of the most exhilarating in golf.  I have not played a second shot to a par-4 that comes even close to the quality of the 8th at Pebble.  It's just pure magic.

The green is severely sloped and is receptive to longer shots, a good thing.  The hole is as good as it gets.

[Sven Nilsen]

My question mark in this three-hole stretch would be 8.  Having never played the course, this hole looks downright gimmicky on television.  If the ocean on the second shot were replaced with, say, tidal marsh, wouldn't most on this site consider the 8th a downright bad golf hole?

9 and 10, however, appear to have strategy, challenge and fun that make their playing characteristics match up to their clifftop setting.

What you don't see on TV on 8 is the elevation change, from tee to fairway and then again from fairway to green.  There's no way you could compare a hole over a tidal marsh or any other similar hazard found on flat ground.  What really makes this hole is the degree of difficulty in judging the 2nd shot, b/c of the elevation change and any wind.

[Andrew Summerell]

The best property for 3 par 4's in a row for sure.

It’s difficult to say anything in golf is ‘The Best’, but I do agree with this statement.

I apologise to Jordan, (you are obviously a massive fan of PB) but I have always felt the 8th, although spectacular, is strategically poor compared to other great par 4’s that I have played around the world, mostly because I have never felt the need to take on the cliff to give me the better approach angle. I would prefer the hole if the green favoured an approach from the right hand side more.

[Matthew Rose]

Having not played Pebble, I'll say this about #8.

There's no second shot in the world I've ever wanted to play more than that one, and that's just from TV.

[Kevin Pallier]

"Best" is always subjective - but I've always liked 1-3 RME or 16-18 TOC

[Adam Clayman]

Andrew. The 8th might be more strategic for the player that needs to flirt with the cliff. While it's approx 250 to the cliff and 165 in from there, slightly weak balls leave 200 yards in, which is too much for that level of player. If you're in the rough the temptation is there to go for it, but, rarely prudent.

[Matt_Ward]

Anyone who has EVER played PB cannot ever forget what the ocean holes are like -- the stretch from #6 through #10 is what lies at the core of why PB is so highly regarded.

Difficulty is a difficult issues to assess because host bodies like the USGA can doctor just about any hole to get a desired result.

Nonetheless, the combo of 8, 9 and 10 are all-world holes -- although I see the drive from #8 tee being a bit less so. I've come to a much fuller appreciation of the greatness of both #9 and #10 -- the added tee boxes have once again brought into play the usage of a driver because even the top players cannot club down and then expect to have an easier approach.

Frankly, I think the approach at #9 is more demanding than the one at #8.

[Ian Andrew]

I thought of all the best ones I knew and none come even close.

St. Andrews 16-17-18
Shinnecock Hills 12-13-14
Merion (East) 10-11-12
National Golf Links of America 15-16-17
Royal Dornoch 3-4-5  
Crystal Downs 5-6-7
Maidstone 9-10-11
Royal Porthcawl  1-2-3

[Andy Troeger]

One thing about the tee shot at the 8th is that it does allow most golfers to hit a fairly long club, and distance control is critical because you really want to hit the shot as far as possible, without going over the edge. I hit a 3-wood and didn't swing as hard as normal and left myself way too much for my second. The pros hit the ball so far that they hit a 4-iron out there like its nothing, but for the regular golfer its much more interesting and demanding. And its not one of those par fours where you have to hit 4-iron, 4-iron, at least for 99% of us.

[Gary Slatter]

I agree that from the championship tees they are as good as it gets for three par fours in a row.

Personally I prefer the 8th with more fairway to the left off the tee, gives more options and angles, and is a tougher tee shot than whacking an iron up the little cliff-side fairway used in the US Open.  I thought they had ruined the hole.

I love the 9th played shorter, for pros or amateurs.  The hole is boring with long second shots.  

The 10th is better now.   IMHO.

[Adam Clayman]

6, 7 and 8 at Ballyneal wil rival the best architecturally because there's no Ocean to warp the player's mind. 
 While 12, 13 and 14 are pretty good, also, considering two are of the short variety.

[Sven Nilsen]

6, 7 and 8 at Ballyneal wil rival the best architecturally because there's no Ocean to warp the player's mind.  
 While 12, 13 and 14 are pretty good, also, considering two are of the short variety.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 8 at Ballyneal a par 5?

2,3,4 at Yale is a pretty good stretch, as are 13, 14, 15 at Bandon Trails and 12, 13, 14 at Sleepy Hollow.