What was Seth Raynor's first solo design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,

That's also a good point.

What entity contracted with the club ?

A Macdonald entity or a Raynor entity, or a Macdonald/Raynor entity ?

[Bill Brightly]

Raynor first year:  so far I have 5 with a possible 6th

George,

When you get around to writing Book #3 on Charles Banks, keep in mind that Hackensack was his first. I think I have already sent you our club minutes indicating he was hired 6 months after Raynor died.

That was the same year that Banks finished up Fishers Island, which got me wondering: with an island site like Fishers, do you know if Raynor, Banks and the other workers lived on the island or ferried back and forth each day?

[George_Bahto]

"Raynor course? I would assume that aerial was post-Herbert Strong's overhaul."

Tom M - you are ASSUMING yet you did not even see the one of three pictures I'm speaking about

how about something positive

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley,

That's also a good point.

What entity contracted with the club ?

A Macdonald entity or a Raynor entity, or a Macdonald/Raynor entity ?

Patrick,

I'm not even sure what the implications are to the answers of those questions. But if Raynor was managing all of the contractural obligations, then I think that level of responsibility moves him closer rather than further from being credited with the design.

How can you fulfill a contractural obligation over something that someone else is designing? Well, obviously builders have been doing that for years, but most of those builders are bidding on drawings that the architect provides. In this case however, Raynor was CBM's engineer.

We tend to think of CBM as like the ghost writer so to speak, for Raynor. Maybe it was the other way around?

Ok now I’m really speculating. 

[Tom MacWood]

"Raynor course? I would assume that aerial was post-Herbert Strong's overhaul."

Tom M - you are ASSUMING yet you did not even see the one of three pictures I'm speaking about

how about something positive

George
It has nothing to do with being positive or negative, and everything to do with being accurate. Based on the changes described in BDE (2/1914) I don't think it would be accurate to ever refer to Nassau as a Raynor golf course, and that is assuming he authored those changes which is still to be determined.

Regarding the assuming I'd call it more of an educated guess. The Fairchild aerial photography company was founded in 1925, and most of their photos are post-1927. There were others doing aerial photos, but no one was as prolific as Fairchild, and most of the others were post-1925 as well. Strong's changes were made in 1924-25.

[George_Bahto]

"I don't think it would be accurate to ever refer to Nassau as a Raynor golf course"

OK this is all I'll say to you on this Tom - I'm not going to get into all the conjectures and assumptions and all the "probablies" and " I think he might haves"

NO ONE is calling this a Raynor golf course - this course is Emmet and Strong course and the Strong course is about what is essentially on the ground today

so don't go putting words in my mouth !!

you can argue with others forever about this if you'd like

[Tom MacWood]

Pat asked: "Wouldn't the answer to which course was SR's first solo design lie within the club's board or green committee minutes of the courses he worked with ?

Those minutes would be dated and they would probably detail if Raynor working alone or if he was assisted"


Pat that's easy to say but most club do not have this information,

I was at Nassau  yesteday and prompted them to look for minutes - we'll see

Pat I also saw that old aerial in the club house, the oblique shot of what appears to be the Raynor course 0 there is a Short with the typical fully loaded sand all around the green way back in the distance of the photo

Raynor first year:  so far I have 5 with a possible 6th

Huh?

[Tom MacWood]

Pat I also saw that old aerial in the club house, the oblique shot of what appears to be the Raynor course 0 there is a Short with the typical fully loaded sand all around the green way back in the distance of the photo

What year was the aerial made?

[Mike Cirba]

These Raynor threads have been all over the place, and I'm not sure if this article was ever posted, but I do recall some speculation about Mountain Lake and this one from November, 1916 seems pretty clear.

[Mike Cirba]

So, apparently its very clear that indeed Mr. Raynor was doing it solo prior to 1917, would we all agree?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Before everyone can agree, the accuracy of the newspaper article has to be substantiated.

If you accept the article, and its date of 1916 as the gospel, then one would have to agree that SR was doing work prior to 1917, and that the work he was doing appears to be solo work.

A question I have is, was CBM approached for Mountain Lake first, and did he slough off the work to SR ?

It's hard to imagine anyone approaching Raynor first, if he had never done a solo project.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Seems Raynor was already highly regarded as an archie at that time as the snippet was from a Philly news account,

It certainly seems he was quite precocious...and rather ambitious!

Good for him,

G
Better for us!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

It would seem reasonable to conclude that Raynor got his first job when CBM was approached for a project and indicated that he couldn't do it, but, that his very capable associate could.

I can't envision someone going to a subordinate first, can you ?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Yes, I'd agree with you that scenario seems the most plausible.

I'd also say that after a LOT of back and forth on various threads and various courses, all Raynor-related,  it's now proven that Seth Raynor was doing his own solo designs prior to 1917, wouldn't you agree?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Lest we forget:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42476.0/

Somewhere in there George Bahto lists about 5 possibilities.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

I think you are assuming too many things here in making your conclusion. "It would seem reasonable to conclude that Raynor got his first job when CBM was approached for a project and indicated that he couldn't do it, but, that his very capable associate could... I can't envision someone going to a subordinate first, can you ?"

I CAN see this as it happened all the time back then and continues to do so today. In fact, the assumption made as fact is that Raynor was "SUBORDINATE" to CBM at the time he got the Mountain Ridge job. Isn't it just as reasonable that he had decided to go out on his own, and history shows us with perfect 20/20 hindsight that he would do this, and that he still worked along with CBM on a few projects while getting himself established?

That method for entering the field of golf course design was quite common both in those days and today. Tilly had several associates who worked for him that would go on their own and yet he allowed them to keep working for and with him while they set up shop. In fact, with one of his associates (whose name escapes me for the moment), Tilly even let him take over the signed contracts for three projects.

So Pat, your assumption that being a "Subordiante" would prevent Raynor from getting solo work and to get it separate from and maybe even as the first chopice of the Club, is an opinion and not fact.

 

[Tom MacWood]

This from the tread the ran simultaneously to this thread:

1910 - NGLA
1911 - Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock, Merion
1912 - St. Louis, Greenbriar
1913 -
1914 - LidoEast Lake,
1915 - Islip, CC of Fairfield, Westhampton, North Shore
1916 - Blind Brook, Shinnecock Hills, Greenwich, Mountain Lake


The underlined are courses with confirmed CBM involvement.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43806.0/

[Phil_the_Author]

Quote from: Tom MacWood on April 08, 2010, 08:35:29 PM
1910 - NGLA
1911 - Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock, Merion
1912 - St. Louis, Greenbriar
1913 -
1914 - LidoEast Lake,
1915 - Islip, CC of Fairfield, Westhampton, North Shore
1916 - Blind Brook, Shinnecock Hills, Greenwich, Mountain Lake

The Bold, Italicized and Highlighted courses have three things in common:
1- They were done BEFORE 1917
2- They were done by Seth Raynor
3- There was NO CBM involvement

[Mike Cirba]

When was raynor at merion?   Why is that on the list?

[Lester George]

It might have been the Old White.....stay tuned!

Lester

[Tom MacWood]

Mike/Phil
The title of that thread was 'Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916' (check the link)...if you will recall that thread was designed to explore when Raynor went out on his own.

[Mike Cirba]

Perhaps I missed it but what evidence exists that raynor had help from anyone else at mountain lake?

[Tom MacWood]

There is no direct evidence Raynor had help; nor is there anything convincing he didn't. There is evidence CBM had connections with the principles at ML, and was in the area at the time.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Don't you think that if mac was involved with the design at ml those same principals would have trumpeted that fact to the national press?

[Mike Cirba]

Why would newspapers in 1916 have credited Seth Raynor with the design of Mountain Lake if CB Macdonald was involved with the design?

Why would those same newspapers give Raynor credit for being a superb architect by that time if he hadn't designed other courses prior?

Is there any evidence, anywhere, to conclude that Raynor didn't design on his own until 1917?

This is about the 5th related thread contending that Raynor didn't lift a finger wtihout Macdonald prior to 1917 and I've yet to see a sliver of evidence to that effect, and an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.