Would ratings by fixed dollar amount be helpful for most public players ?

[John Moore II]

Matt-The non-resident rate for twilight times is what I listed above according to the Bethpage website.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

The twilight rate is a "special adjustment" -- not the absolute peak rate for non-resident players.

It's over $100 now.

[John Moore II]

John:

The twilight rate is a "special adjustment" -- not the absolute peak rate for non-resident players.

It's over $100 now.

I don't care if it is a special adjustment or not, the fact remains that a person can play Bethpage Black for less than $100 if they choose. Same with Pacific Dunes. Pacific Dunes can be had for less than $100 (if a resort guest, the walk-up rate is exactly $100 during winter).

Tell you what, looking at the price list posted below, I will go play Pacific Dunes on lets say February 10th, and someone else can go play RTJ Golf Trail at Capitol Hill (The Judge) on May 10th. I will pay $75, other guy will pay $74. You tell me who got the better deal for golf? Its not my fault the other guy is too stupid to find out when the good rates can be had. (And the Pac Dunes-RTJ comparison is even better now that I think of it, Pac Dunes-#2 public course in America according to Golf Digest, RTJ is #100. So, from near top to bottom of that list, great/very good golf can be had for under $100)

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Knock yourself out on how you wish to categorize and list courses.

From the people who have opined on here -- besides you and me -- the sentiment for peak rates being used as the benchmark has been stated over and over again.

I'm sure people can get a $$ break if they play golf at 2 AM if they want to.

The issue is that to group courses with all these special adjustments would take a myriad of notes and other "smalll print" language to include.

When you have a peak rate of no more than $99 you get a much clearer and easier way to see what the true costs are at times when most people likely would be playing.

Gents:

Five other courses to consider ...

*Birdsfoot (just outside Pittsburgh)

*Knoll West (Parsippany, NJ)

*Rochelle Ranch (Rawlins, WY)

*Bayside (western Nebraska)

*Desert Canyon  (Orondo, WA)

[John Moore II]

Matt-Do what you want, but the fact of the matter is that outstanding golf can be had for people willing to research stuff and play at off peak times.

[Doug Siebert]

John,

That fact might be useful if it didn't, as you say, require a lot of research.  If there was a website were I could plug in my criteria, so I could list the area, the date range, and the days/times I'm willing to play and the maximum I'm willing to spend and say "list the highest rated courses meeting this criteria" then you'd have something.  But that's not what Matt is proposing - it'd be great to have, but its a couple orders of magnitude harder to create and maintain than a simple list of courses using their peak rates.

Everyone is different with what they'll accept in terms of non-peak rates.  I hate playing in the cold, there isn't a course in the world I'd pay 50 cents to play when its 40F.  However, I have no problem with heat, so if I could get a deal at say Shadow Creek playing after 2pm on a weekday in July I'd do it (and BTW to anyone reading this I'm going to be in Vegas in a couple weeks so if there are any top courses I can get a really awesome deal on playing after 2pm on a weekday, please feel free to let me know )

But since everyone is different with what times or conditions they'll accept, how can this possibly be put into a list that's useful to anyone?  Matt's idea using peak rates offers a single number you can use to build a list on, and that list would be something you could use to build a trip around if you wanted.  If you are outside of peak season/times you might miss out a few top courses that would offer deals under your dollar threshold, but sticking with courses that have peak rates below your threshold means their off season rates will have you saving even more.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Adding more info -- especially offpeak info would take plenty of work and likely not suit a number of people who have certain preferences as Doug mentioned.

I think peak time rates would provide an apples to apples comparison and allow people to sample some really solid ocurses without having to empty their bank book.

The issue with GCA, and the leading mags, is the singular attraction to rating only the elite of elite places.

[Jud_T]

Lawsonia-$55
Ravisloe-$53
Shepherd's Crook- $42

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

Good call on Lawsonia -- where are Ravisloe and Shepherd's Crook located ?

Are they at the level of Lawsonia ?

[Jud_T]

They're both in the metro Chicago area, but not on the level of Lawsonia.  Probably potential candidates for the lower tier of the list.  Shepherd's Crook is in Zion, Il.  Is listed on one of the top muni lists.  Interesting Keith Foster design.  Ravisloe is an old Donald Ross track in Homewood, IL that had some work done by David Esler in 2003 and went public last year after 101 years as a private Jewish club, IMHO best public for the money in the greater Chicago area....Cog Hill #2 might be a dark horse candidate as well, but I've only played it once...What about Annbriar?

[Garland Bayley]

The fact that the subject of this thread says "for most public players" means putting the limit at $100 is meaningless. Most public players are public players, because they see cost as the overriding issue, and $100 for most public players says will not play. E.g., Pierce county WA residents that will not play Chambers Bay, but will play any number of other local tracks for under $50. If you want to be "helpful" limit the cost to $50, and tell them what is available for that price. I would bet some of them would be interested in knowing what is available for that price with reasonable conditions. I.e., some courses start twilight rates at 2pm, so you know they are looking for players. Others might start twilight at a time where you can't finish the round, so they really are not looking for players, and the intelligent golfer can rule them out on his own.

Actually, varying the price by region allowing you to go over $50 might be reasonable. For example, The Links of ND at $60, is probably equal to $120 in New Jersey. In either case, The Links of ND and Black Mesa do not belong on a "helpful" list, unless they can get there through something like the two rounds in a day rate that (last I checked) gets Black Mesa to under $50 per round. ND and NM are not high cost areas that can best have cost limited at $50.

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

I once started a thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31437.0/

to find the best $25 and under course in the US -- no discounts, no special times, no deals, just the best course you could walk up to any day of the year, plop down $25 (or less) and walk 18 holes. Aiken, in SCarolina, was a leading candidate.

Jud:

Just a note -- Lawsonia's absolute peak rate (walking) is $90 three of the seven days of the week; the $55 rate is the Mon-Thurs. walking rate. Ravisloe also has a tiered rate -- $53 Mon-Thur., $63 Friday, $73 Sat/Sun. The $42 at SCrook is the standard seven-days-a-week walking rate for non-residents, which is probably the applicable rate.

[Jud_T]

You could have an adjusted cost vs. Regional cost-of-living index but that seems a bit much

[Matt_Ward]

The idea that one can have varying dollar amounts because of the area in which you reside is nothing more than the same concept in which off-peak times are posted. One would have to apply a myriad of different small print explanations and all the rest that goes with it.

Guys, for those of you who don't get it -- make up your own list with whatever qualifications / limitations you want.

This is one is quite simple -- $99 and less at peak times. Not $100 as some have erroneously mentioned.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

If you don't like the ground rules -- simple --  create your own thread and post whatever you please.

You might be surprised but golf costs less in NY than many might imagine -- yes, one does have your allotment of CCFAD and other such courses. But the fee structures are not as different as many might imagine. No doubt major metro areas of CA, the Vegas area as well as Scottsdale have skewed price points because of the demand in those areas in the winter months.

The big tent world of under $100 captures a good bit of the market place though.

Now -- the case is closed.

[Andy Troeger]

I think the peak rate of $100 is the way to go if creating such a list, but I think there's at least one additional limitation to the need for such a list on a national level. If someone is going to travel to play a golf course and is willing to spend $500 to fly across the country and rent a car and stay in a hotel, what does it really matter if the course is $95 or $115? Matt, from your door I'm sure its less expensive to play Pound Ridge as a day trip than to play Black Mesa or Four Mile Ranch as a road-trip, so cost is still very relative.

Quite honestly, I think that golfers serious enough about traveling to see courses are quite aware of which ones are priced at a reasonable level and which ones are out of their price range. Most of the play at any of those courses has to come from within a small radius, and if those folks don't know about their local courses than an additional list in a magazine isn't going to make much difference.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

It's a given people may need to pay travel costs -- even the local guy who lives in Albuquerque who treks to Black Mesa will have to spend $$ for gas to get there.

The idea behind the $99 top cost is to demonstrate that quality golf can be had that is not going to be so expensive to make playing multiple courses so prohibtive.

Sure there are other travel costs for the person who is coming from longer distances -- but every dollar saved does matter -- especially for those on a tight budget -- they appreciate not having to fork over even a dollar more for their entertainment. Let me point out that many other courses might have a large marketing / advertising budget to boost their course but the architectural elements are usually wanting. Having a $99 top price list allows people to separate the ad hypes from those that really do provide something of quality.

A good example in NM would be the additional resources that a Tamaya has when compared to Black Mesa. The former has the tie to Hyatt which allows them to advertise and draw players. A mag article which features the best under $99 courses can give people a better idea on how to stretch their limited dollars. Simple as that ...

[Sean_A]

One man's opinion who plays a fair amount of golf and travels a fair bit to do so: I work on a $70-$90 range.  I am usually gonna want some seriously trusted opinions before I head out to play a course for $100 - even on a trip.  Anything very fine less than $70 is a bonus; less than $45 and a very fine course is supreme (far and few between these are).  Anything over $90 and the course has some work cut out for it to prove to me its worth big bucks.  Once we hit the $150 range the course is gonna have to be truly outstanding before it gets my attention for repeat play.  There are just too many good courses for far less out there to pay that sort of price terribly often. 

Ciao   

[Garland Bayley]

I think the peak rate of $100 is the way to go if creating such a list, but I think there's at least one additional limitation to the need for such a list on a national level. If someone is going to travel to play a golf course and is willing to spend $500 to fly across the country and rent a car and stay in a hotel, what does it really matter if the course is $95 or $115? Matt, from your door I'm sure its less expensive to play Pound Ridge as a day trip than to play Black Mesa or Four Mile Ranch as a road-trip, so cost is still very relative.

Quite honestly, I think that golfers serious enough about traveling to see courses are quite aware of which ones are priced at a reasonable level and which ones are out of their price range. Most of the play at any of those courses has to come from within a small radius, and if those folks don't know about their local courses than an additional list in a magazine isn't going to make much difference.

But what percent of "public players" travel across the country, rent a car, and stay in a hotel, just to play golf.
When you consider, that many players will be looking for an inexpensive add-on to a trip planned for other reasons, then they might be interested in something that cost more in the range of what they play at home.

[Richard Choi]

But what percent of "public players" travel across the country, rent a car, and stay in a hotel, just to play golf.

The same percentage who look up top 100 lists in golf magazines is my guess.

[Fred Yanni]

Ok here are a few non obvious public courses I love for $99 bucks and under that would be in my top 30 or so publics in the Northeast.  Many would merit some consideration for a top 100 list in the US per Matt's criteria.

1) Seven Oaks Golf Course - Colgate University, Hamilton, NY   - RTJ  $80.00.
2) Shennecossett Golf Course - Groton, CT - Donald Ross - $47.00
3) Fox Hopyard Golf Club - East Hamden, CT - $45-$99 ($99 on weekends)
4) Radisson Greens - Baldwinsville, NY $25.00  RTJ
5) Wayne Hills, Lyons, NY  $50.00
6) Sodus Bay Heights Golf Club, Sodus Point, NY $52.00
7) Bristol Harbour, Canandaigua, NY  $69.00

Enjoy!

[Tony Weiler]

Matt, some of these are on the GD top 100 Public by cost as listed by Jim C, but I'd put in:

Hawktree, $70 (ND)
Links of ND, $64
Bully Pulpit, $79 (includes cart) (ND)
Old Works, $50 (Mt.)

Now, I'd like to know how much Vista Verde (AZ) is in peak season.  I can't find that on the web, but I've played it in April for $75 with cart. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

I believe VV would be above the threshold -- good choices on the others you mentioned -- esepcially Bully Pulpit -- few ever talk about that course here. I like Hawktree too but Engh has done better with his public layouts in the immediate CO area.

Fred:

the first three places you listed are the only ones I would think could make a top 100 list for both price and design quality. I've played the bottom four and while they have their moments -- I don't see them making my final cut.

[Fred Yanni]

Matt,

In 100% agreement with your thoughts - I wanted to list a few more solid places to play for <$99 in case some had never heard of them.

Thanks

[Garland Bayley]

Matt, some of these are on the GD top 100 Public by cost as listed by Jim C, but I'd put in:

Hawktree, $70 (ND)
Links of ND, $64
Bully Pulpit, $79 (includes cart) (ND)
Old Works, $50 (Mt.)

Now, I'd like to know how much Vista Verde (AZ) is in peak season.  I can't find that on the web, but I've played it in April for $75 with cart. 

Looks like Bully Pulpit has gone to the overpricing model just like everything else in Medora!