[RSLivingston_III]

Tom MacWood,

Any suggestions?

I suggest you stick with your original claim and change the date to 1936.

I suggest you break this into 2 eras, 1895-1904  --  1905-1931
AND you forgot the disclaimer that this was a USA centric thread...

[RSLivingston_III]

Actually, you probably need to make the end of it around 1925, otherwise you have to allow in failed private clubs turned public because of the depression.

That could be an interesting list in and of itself.

[Mike Cirba]

Ralph,

This is definitely a USA_centric thread, with no offense meant to our brethren in other countries, many of whom have a much longer, richer public golf legacy than exists in the US.

I'm curious to hear why you have breakouts between years 1895-1904, and then 1905-1930?   What would you see as the defining moment there that changed things?

Thanks!

Jeff/Tim,

Thanks for all of the additional info.   It sounds as thought Palos Hills might have been the best Chicago public pre 1930?


Here's an update;

The Top Ten

Brackenridge Park, San Antonio, TX - 1916
Brown Deer Park - Milwaukee, WI - 1929
Cobb's Creek - Philadelphia, PA - 1916
Eastmoreland - Portland, OR - 1917
Griffith Park (Wilson) - Los Angeles, CA - 1924
Harding Park - San Francisco, CA - 1925
Keller GC - Minneapolis, MN - 1929
Memorial Park - Houston, TX - 1925
Rackham GC - Detroit, MI - 1924
Wilmington - Wilmington, NC - 1926

Other contenders?   Here's some that come to mind.

Community GC - Dayton, OH
East Potomac - Washington DC
Shawnee - Louisville, KY
Coffin GC - Indianapolis, IN
Palos Hills - Chicago, IL
Glencoe - Chicago, IL
Pell GL Bronx, NY
Waveland - Des Moines, IA
Franklin Park - Boston, MA
Forest Park - St. Louis, MO
Memorial Park - Houston, TX

[Mike Cirba]

Any other recommendations?  What were the best ones in the southeast?

[Tim_Cronin]

Tim,

When I worked there in 1973 and 4, I was told that Glencoe was widely regarded as the best public course in the area for a long time.  Even then, some celebs came out to play when they were in town. I remember getting Johnny Matthis' autograph.  It was a nice site, with not a lot of contour, but tucked in between the forest preserve and the land that became the Botanic Garden.

Jeff,
   I think the key to Glencoe's success, then and now, is that the profits have to be reinvested in the course. It's a partnership between Cook County's forest preserve district and the village's park district, I think. Neither can take any money out. I've played there a couple of times, and the tender loving care shows.

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,

This is definitely a USA_centric thread, with no offense meant to our brethren in other countries, many of whom have a much longer, richer public golf legacy than exists in the US.

I'm curious to hear why you have breakouts between years 1895-1904, and then 1905-1930?   What would you see as the defining moment there that changed things?

Gutty vs. Rubber ball. By 1904 the transition would have been complete. 1902 could be better...
I don't believe any 19th century courses remain intact today.
Were you asking about courses that are highly regarded NOW or within there own time.

[Mike Cirba]

Ralph,

Thanks, gotcha on the gutty.

I'm primarily looking at what one travelling city to coty in the late 20s may have thought.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Any other recommendations?  What were the best ones in the southeast?

Franconia in Springfield, MA.  Pre-1930 (late 1920s), short, fairly easy, but a good muni and fun to play.

Keney Golf Course in Hartford is also pre-1930, but I have never played it, so can not otherwise comment.

Oak Hills Golf Course in Jefferson City, MO claims to go back to 1917.  Another very good muni.  But I last played it in 1997 so my assessment of the quality of this course is bit fuzzy.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim. Jackson park has some holes of merit. To dismiss it out of hand, especially with Brown Deer on the list seems incongruent.

[Stewart Abramson]

Mike - Are you sure Wellshire in Denver was public at the time in question? I've played there several times and was told by a local that it was originally a private club and was taken over by the city of Denver at a later time.

[Tim_Cronin]

Tim. Jackson park has some holes of merit. To dismiss it out of hand, especially with Brown Deer on the list seems incongruent.

Adam, I've played Jax. Remember the atmosphere - horns honking, sirens, music in the background (hey, a lot like the second and third holes at Beverly when the Dan Ryan Woods are hopping! ) but I can't remember a particular hole. At 5,508 yards today, it's never been long. I'd suggest it would be considered highly regarded only for its long history of service to the community, especially as a place where blacks could play when few other courses were open to them.

[Sean_A]

Again, I don't know where Rogell stood in relation to other public courses back in 1930, but it is a very good course, albeit troubled with conditioning/infrastructure issues my entire lifetime.  IMO New Rogell is every bit as good as Rackham although Rackham was always considered the top Detroit muni - likely because of location and its unique clubhouse.  The course, known as Phoenix CC originally, was T Bendelow 9 holer built by the Jewish community of Detroit in 1914.  Within ten years the course was sold to Redford (township) and if it wasn't a public course before Redford CC (as it became known) certainly became a public course.  Incidentally, I believe the same group of people responsible for the creation of Phoenix CC went on to build Franklin Hills a few miles northwest of Redford.  Redford hired Ross in the early 1920s to redesign the existing nine holes and build an additional nine holes which featured the Rouge River on several holes.  It was on this new course that Chuck Kocsis (a Michigan golfing legend) learned to play the game.  The city of Detroit bought the course near the end of WWII and eventually changed the name to Rogell (a source of great confusion to me in high school when suddenly Redford CC disappeared and nobody talked about Rogell as it was in a "bad neighbourhood") after the great Tiger short stop and long time Detroit Councilman.  A church of all organizations bought the course from Detroit a few years ago and renamed the course New Rogell.  I am told great improvements have been made, but I haven't seen the course in many a year.  A group of us hole in oners used to go to Rogell every year as part of the Detroit News Hole In One Contest in which only those with a verifiable hole in one could enter.  Of course, we would have a game after taking our three shots in the contest.  It used to be a very strange sight to see so many white folks descend on the course and every year it seemed to look worse and worse. I don't think Rogell hosts this event anymore.  In any case, I don't hold out much hope for teh course surviving unless serious drianage issues on the back nine can be resolved.  

Ciao

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks for the additional information and suggestions guys. 

What do folks think of Brown Deer Park?   I haven't been there, but thought it's reputation was pretty high among munis.

Stewart,

If Wellshire was private originally, I'll look into that and revise the list if appropriate.

[Tom MacWood]

Wellshire was private originally.

[Steve Lang]

For all of you Ohioans, how does Ottawa Park in Toledo fare in this discussion?

....
Memorial Park - Houston, TX

I grew up next to/playing and winter sledding at Ottawa Park..  we called it the Country Club..  while original 9 of 1899/expansion to 18 in 1908/1916 as part of park masterplan attributed to SP Jermain, the original holes were once reported by Toldeo Blade as being cut out of the forest earlier by apple farmers.. on west side from Cheltenham to Secor Road the subdivision was named Old Orchard.  Ottawa Park hosted the first USGA AM PUBLINX in 1922 and beyond the golf had some great stories such as shoeless competitors and an avenging wife also making headlines.   SP was rumored to have gotten advice from Ross whom he was trying to get to Inverness..  It had some wild ditches and rough areas in 1960's that would have visually rivalled some dunes golf I've played lately . those areas now filled in on present 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16 .. also#1 is now 18, #18 is lost on north side of entrance road.  we used to play for 50 cents before 10:00 AM, now that promoted jr golf with kids from north, south and west side and we all later went to same high school!!!

http://www.jryr.com/Ottawa_Park_(home_course).html

Memorial would have been big flat texas style vs small tight hilly Ottawa Park

are all the early USGA tourney sites on this list?

[Mike Cirba]

Steve,

Thanks for the additional info about Ottawa Park.

I think most of the early US Publinks courses are on the list, with the exception of Jacksonville, but I'll double-check.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

Small world. My cousins lived near OP and we used to sled there, too.  There was what I would call an engineered bank that had two shelves cut into the high bank, perhaps for erosion control.  The kids had always smoothed out one little area for sledding but I got off track, and one of those little level areas got me airborne! I landed so hard on my back I thought it was broken and crawled back to the cousins house after an hour of laying in the snow.  My cousin, who shared the back ot the sled did worse, though.  He landed on a shard of glass once, and it cut is butt, so he was forever obligated to "show his scar" to the aunts and uncles, which was pretty embarrassing for a then 13 year old boy!

[Steve Lang]

   Jeff you probably sledded on long wide hill below 13th hole above 1st fairway.. center bottom of photo.. wiped out on plateau of 9th tee just above 1st fairway.. and perhaps over on far west side may have done big hill below 3rd green/14th green..  we built tobaggan run on far west where hike path is now..  

[Phil McDade]

Thanks for the additional information and suggestions guys. 

What do folks think of Brown Deer Park?   I haven't been there, but thought it's reputation was pretty high among munis.

Mike:

Good but not great. A solid layout, with some recent updating by Andy North, my sense is that its stature has risen a bit because of its regular (now defunct) use as a PGA Tour stop for the old GMO. With a few exceptions, it's always seemed to me to be pretty one-dimensional -- there is a creek that bisects the course running north-south, and there is a lot of back-and-forthing with fairways crossing the creek, often with an elevated tee shot. I think the 10th is pretty good, with a pond hugging the outside corner of a dogleg, which tightens the LZ noticeably, and the uphill par 5 closer is pretty solid. Overall, nothing to severely criticize, but nothing stands out, either. (Interestingly, at least to me, it played slightly harder at last year's US Mid-Am during qualifying play than its more highly acclaimed next-door neighbor, Milwaukee CC). At under $45 for weekday or weekend play for county residents, I'd say its very good value.

[Chris_Clouser]

I wouldn't put Coffin on that list for Indy, Riverside was perhaps the top muni course in town for quite awhile until it went down hill during the Depression.  Coffin got a resurgance after WWII which Riverside did not benefit from.  Other top places in Indiana would include Brookwood in Fort Wayne and Beechwood in LaPorte.

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,

Thanks, gotcha on the gutty.

I'm primarily looking at what one travelling city to coty in the late 20s may have thought.

Just thought of something else, traveling from city to city to play golf would have been limited to the affluent at that time. It is unlikely the wealthy were visiting public courses when highly regarded private clubs were available to them. Do a search of the PDFs of the old magazines, there is little mention of the public courses outside of announcements for tournaments. I did it with Jackson Park and was a bit surprised until I realized the public wasn't traveling to play. In fact the were really only starting to play during this era, so most probably only played there one local course their whole lives.

[Mike Cirba]

Ralph,

I think that's a terrific point and one worth repeating.

In the case of Cobb's Creek, I'm sure most of the middle to lower class golfers there played the course virtually every time they played golf, with the possible exception on vacation if something was affordable.   That was really their only golf experience.

It's not like today where someone is trying to play "The Best 100 You Can Play", or some such thing.

From studying those time lines, it seems to me that the very best players seemed to aspire to either joining a reputable, but less expensive club like Llanerch (i.e. John Beadle and Marcus Greer), or turn professional, hoping to latch onto one of the bigger clubs as an assistance, and then head pro (Joe Coble).

But those with upward mobility were clearly not the average player.   In some ways, comparing and contrasting could only be done with some historical insight, per the major point of your thread.

Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

I wouldn't put Coffin on that list for Indy, Riverside was perhaps the top muni course in town for quite awhile until it went down hill during the Depression.  Coffin got a resurgance after WWII which Riverside did not benefit from.  Other top places in Indiana would include Brookwood in Fort Wayne and Beechwood in LaPorte.

Coffin was considered the top public course in Indy prior to WWII. It hosted the 1930 US Publinx and the 1946 Indiana State Open.

[TEPaul]

"Coffin was considered the top public course in Indy prior to WWII. It hosted the 1930 US Publinx and the 1946 Indiana State Open."


Tom MacWood:

It was? What "factual" or "PHACTUAL"  evidence to you have to base that on, or alternatively what's your "source" for making a statement like that?

For Christ-Sakes man, what would Moriarty say?    
 
 

[Richard Hetzel]

Never thought I would see Community GC on this list!  36-holer in the Dayton area, still going strong.

I might consider adding Avon Fields in Cincinnati, which according to its records is the oldest public golf course west of the Allegheny Mountains.

Oldest "municipal, or city owned golf course". It is SUPER TOUGH getting information about it's history as well. This is an e mail I just received from the Cincinnati Historical Society:

Dear Mr. Hetzel,

I looked in to your question about Avon Field Golf Course in Avondale.
The land for Avon Fields was originally purchased in 1911.  The City of
Cincinnati bought the land (originally the Blachly Farm) for around
$82,925.00, and it consisted of 114 acres.  In 1914, the golf course was
created on this piece of land and it was re-named Avon Fields.  In the
annual report for the City of Cincinnati in 1914, it says that a "pro
golfer, a graduate from St. Andrews Links, Scotland, was engaged and
quickly laid out and inaugurated a 9 hole golf course."  It goes on to
explain that because of its popularity, in 1915, another 9 holes was to
be added.  According to many newspaper sources, Avon Fields is "the
oldest municipal golf course west of the Allegheny mountains."  I was
not able to find any concrete information about this mysterious
architect from Scotland.  Online, however, I found reference to two
different architects.  Some websites claim that Langford and Moreau
(sometimes spelled Morrow) designed it while many claim that Donald J.
Ross designed it.  Ross is from Scotland, but he is also a famous golf
course designer and the Avon Fields Golf Course is not listed as a
course he designed according to the Donald Ross Society.   

In 1972, they added a driving range and miniature golf course as well.
Avon Fields is now operated by the Cincinnati Recreation Commission.

I would like to know who this "graduate of St. Andrews Links was....."

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