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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Every club in the bag?
« on: March 15, 2002, 08:08:52 AM »
Actually I think this statement is way over-rated when using it in the context of what is a good or not so good golf course.  But anyway, Jeff Bauer made a related comment below that got me thinking about playing different golf shots.  He said:

“I also agree with Ron (Ron Whitten) that balancing shot requirements over 18 holes is more practical than having a host of options on every hole!  Most holes do one thing well, and to try to do more is usually a fatal design flaw”.

I generally have been of the opinion that the more options a hole has, the better it is.  That may still be the case in certain circumstances.  However, if architects try to design a dozen different ways to play every hole it could prove as Jeff says, to be a fatal error!  

Does every hole in the 18 need to have all sorts of playing strategies?  Another way to say it, do you need to have the option to hit “every club in the bag” on each hole or just through out the 18?

Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2002, 08:15:07 AM »
Mark:

I've always taken the expression "every club in the bag" to mean through the course of an entire round.  I sure don't want to be using them all on one hole!!  

Had an interesting e-mail exchange with another poster about two area courses.  He liked one that allowed for some strategic options and said another favored bangers.

Personally, I think golf is unique among sports in that it allows someone with a weakness to play around it through management like David Toms did in the PGA.  Not comfortable with that long approach that many TOUR players would find easy?  Okay, go the other way.

To design a course where you had to at some point do all things (first example that comes to mind is forced carries) in order to score well seems like it goes against my tastes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2002, 08:25:36 AM »
I agree with John. But better still are sites with width and wind that require all clubs and different ones the second time around.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2002, 08:37:15 AM »
Guys,
Let's focus more on this comment from Jeff:  

“I also agree with Ron (Ron Whitten) that balancing shot requirements over 18 holes is more practical than having a host of options on every hole!  Most holes do one thing well, and to try to do more is usually a fatal design flaw”.

When I said every club in the bag I was tough in cheek about having "the option" to use every club in the bag on each hole!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2002, 09:06:39 AM »
Mark,

I came up with the philosophy of "does one thing well" during several remodel projects.  In a way, the philosphy is for mere survival, and limiting the potential design options for a particular hole from infinity, to a more manageble number! :)It  intends to limit the endless options members want to, in my professional opinion, "overdesign" into the one or two holes they happen to be doing.  

At one club in particular, that used to host a PGA tournament, (maybe it still does) they were remodelling one green and wanted it to play as a five for members and a four in the tournament. Then, they wanted part of the green to be covered, and kick a ball away (for the pros) and receptive in another area for the members.  The long and short of it is, that if the design expression "started out to design a camel, and ended up with a horse" wasn't coined for that green, it should have been.

The actual phyics of ball flight and green design usually do indicate it will favor one shot over another.  for instance, it can only generally tip up or down as it faces the golfer, meaning it will hold an aerial shot in the former, and require a run in in the latter case.  Actually, my research shows that any green with a front to back upslope of less than 1.3% is not likely to hold the average golfers shot.

It can also generally slope left to right or right to left, meaning it will "hold" a hook or fade proportionately better.

Usually, if my green axis angles left, I make the right side high, for vision, but also so a hook can run out, and a fade has more upslope to give it bite.  If the key hazard is also front left, you can try to:

A. Hit a fade

   1. carry it closely, and stop quickly, to get below the hole
   2. take extra club, accepting a downhill putt
   3.  hit it harder with more backspin, or f

B. Hit a Hook to follow the axis of the green with a draw and t

   1.trickle it down to the hole from the center of the green
   2.flirt with the front left hazard, in an effort to get below the hole, or
   3. play safer out to the right, with a resulting downhill putt, or chip

Voila, one basic green slope, two options, each with sub options. I generally think a hook to a green angled left is the better option, but to each his own.  No need for the architect to design in a bunch of options on every hole - the golfer does that very well on his own thank you.

Obviously, there is room for all types of holes on a golf course.  I actually prefer some that require a hook, or fade, etc. to get in the best possible position. I prefer others with multiple options.  I always like a few holes that offer stark options, and some that offer "death by degree options" where things just narrow up.

I guess I'm thinking about it because I just sent Paul Daley the peice he so kindly requested for his book.  When you start writing it down, its hard!  Then, you end up classifying various options just to describe them, nad they sound simplistic!  But you gotta call them something!

Again, based on my experience with armchair arhcitects, I feel that when given their first chance to design, they do in fact try to put too much into a hole in many cases. (often called six pounds of hole in a five pound bag)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2002, 11:18:15 AM »
Thanks for the response and clarification Jeff.  I'll be curious what others think?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2002, 10:32:06 AM »
I agree with Jeff's thinking, especially "based on my experience with armchair arhcitects, I feel that when given their first chance to design, they do in fact try to put too much into a hole in many cases."

Invariably, courses with restrained architecture seem to age the best, at least to my way of thinking.

Having 18 Lido holes would be both repetitious by definition and contrived.

Far better for hole A to bend left to right, hole B to be a Redan and accept the classic draw, hole C's green to be guarded across its front and accept only an aerial approach, hole D's green to be open in front for a running approach, etc.

In fact, that's the first four holes at Somerset Hills  ;) Taken in total  over the 18 holes, AWT asks the golfer to hit every kind of shot over that gem of a design.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Every club in the bag?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2002, 07:11:25 PM »
Mark And Jeff:

I couldn't agree more! Sometimes "options" seem to be a synonym for a good golf hole requirement. Certainly can be but it would be hard to try to design an entire course of holes with real discernable multiple options.

The high demand, low option, well designed hole can add much to a course even if it may seem one dimensional in its strategic requirements and demands.

A little of everything spread out well over a course is what I think of as "every club in the bag."

I think sometimes our modern expectations of multiple options and multiple strategies on a single golf hole is a bit misunderstood anyway. Modern golfers think much more about things like GIR and various routes to par while when the older designer thought about "options" and "strategies" many of the things they were thinking of and designing in came with the expected loss of a shot for safety sake etc.

I think we forget that part of it too readily when we think of "options", "strategies" in an architectural context today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »