[Brian Laurent]

I'm a Ryan Moore fan as well and understand that many of the players had complaints about the conditions.  I just find it hard to believe that "luck" played such a huge factor in this championship...sure, maybe a shot here or there, but when three of the world's top 7 players and pre-tournament favorites finish in the top 5 at the end, that indicates to me that skill was rewarded. 

[Mike_Young]

The one constant in golf course architecture and every golf course in existence is two tee markers and a cup.....they need to get over and go play....everything else..whether design or agronomic is nothing but opinion.....
none ever said anywhere in the rules that golf is fair...but they did mention rub of the green...

If he is going to be sponsored by a company trying to go back to classic blades, wedges etc....I would carefully word such complaints...

[George Pazin]

I had NO problem with #17.  Was it almost impossible to hit the green?  Sure.  Does this mean there was a problem with the setup on this hole?  No way, I don't believe there's any reason golfers should feel they have a 'right' to be able to put the ball on the green in regulation!  How is it any different from a long par 4 played into a strong wind where no one can reach the green in regulation?  If they played 17 to lay up or otherwise decide where the best miss for them was, many would have scored lower.  This hole is the opposite of #4, where the USGA moved tees up and turned it into a half par hole.  Unfortunately, while applauding the USGA for going the half par route when it means dropping the par by a half, few in GCA (or apparently on tour) believe its in opposite number where the par is increased by a half!  There was plenty of room to lay up and possibly trickle the ball onto the front right for a long putt or more likely chip to the back of the green, and for a guy competing in the US Open, I think laying up would have made it more of a par 3 1/4 than 3 1/2 anyway.  I think the USGA was testing the players' intelligence, and they all failed.

But we've had this argument in GCA before, and I always find to my chagrin I don't have very many people in my corner, believing that there's nothing wrong with a par 3 that has a green that can't be held under some conditions...

As for #14, I didn't have any problem with the approach shot.  There's nothing wrong with expecting a precision shot from a championship player with a wedge in his hands (and if he doesn't have a wedge in his hands, its his fault for whatever screwup earlier in the hole causes him to be playing a longer approach)  My issue was that the 4th shot after a miss was as difficult if not more difficult than the approach.  It would have been interesting to see what players would have done if the rules of golf allowed players to drop and hit their 4th from same spot as their third, rather than playing the short shot from around the greens.

I'm in your corner, Doug! Don't know if that is a comfort or a frightening prospect for you.

I can see your point on 14, but I'd rather see nothing done that have someone make it boring, which would be the likely result if they try to change it, imho.

I'm a Ryan Moore fan as well and understand that many of the players had complaints about the conditions.  I just find it hard to believe that "luck" played such a huge factor in this championship...sure, maybe a shot here or there, but when three of the world's top 7 players and pre-tournament favorites finish in the top 5 at the end, that indicates to me that skill was rewarded. 

Well said.

[David Kelly]

Moore benefited from luck more than most of his opponents this year.  In the first round he was given a free drop while in the hazard after his ridiculous shot on 17.  He made the cut by two strokes but without the drop he would have definitely lost at least 1 more stroke on that hole.

[JR Potts]

He made the cut by two strokes but without the drop he would have definitely lost at least 1 more stroke on that hole.

So what you're saying is that he still would have made the cut - allbeit by one shot?   So what exactly are you saying?

[Garland Bayley]

He made the cut by two strokes but without the drop he would have definitely lost at least 1 more stroke on that hole.

So what you're saying is that he still would have made the cut - allbeit by one shot?   So what exactly are you saying?

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

[Brent Hutto]

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

Why not?

The course is either tricked up or it isn't. Ryan Moore does not like tricked up courses and believes Pebble was tricked up.

If Pebble truly was tricked up (and I'm not saying it was) why would a couple of lucky bounces make him like it any better?

Not that a favorable Ruling is the same thing as a lucky bounce, these guys live and die by favorable Rulings every round of their lives.

[Martin Toal]

I had NO problem with #17.  Was it almost impossible to hit the green?  Sure.  Does this mean there was a problem with the setup on this hole?  No way, I don't believe there's any reason golfers should feel they have a 'right' to be able to put the ball on the green in regulation!  How is it any different from a long par 4 played into a strong wind where no one can reach the green in regulation?  If they played 17 to lay up or otherwise decide where the best miss for them was, many would have scored lower.  This hole is the opposite of #4, where the USGA moved tees up and turned it into a half par hole.  Unfortunately, while applauding the USGA for going the half par route when it means dropping the par by a half, few in GCA (or apparently on tour) believe its in opposite number where the par is increased by a half!  There was plenty of room to lay up and possibly trickle the ball onto the front right for a long putt or more likely chip to the back of the green, and for a guy competing in the US Open, I think laying up would have made it more of a par 3 1/4 than 3 1/2 anyway.  I think the USGA was testing the players' intelligence, and they all failed.

But we've had this argument in GCA before, and I always find to my chagrin I don't have very many people in my corner, believing that there's nothing wrong with a par 3 that has a green that can't be held under some conditions...

As for #14, I didn't have any problem with the approach shot.  There's nothing wrong with expecting a precision shot from a championship player with a wedge in his hands (and if he doesn't have a wedge in his hands, its his fault for whatever screwup earlier in the hole causes him to be playing a longer approach)  My issue was that the 4th shot after a miss was as difficult if not more difficult than the approach.  It would have been interesting to see what players would have done if the rules of golf allowed players to drop and hit their 4th from same spot as their third, rather than playing the short shot from around the greens.

I'm in your corner, Doug! Don't know if that is a comfort or a frightening prospect for you.

I can see your point on 14, but I'd rather see nothing done that have someone make it boring, which would be the likely result if they try to change it, imho.

I agree. It was a par 3 1/2. Big deal. There were not many complaints from players that the 6th hole was a par 4 1/2 at best.

[Garland Bayley]

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

Why not?

The course is either tricked up or it isn't. Ryan Moore does not like tricked up courses and believes Pebble was tricked up.

If Pebble truly was tricked up (and I'm not saying it was) why would a couple of lucky bounces make him like it any better?

Not that a favorable Ruling is the same thing as a lucky bounce, these guys live and die by favorable Rulings every round of their lives.

Because, as a statistically cognizant person Brent, you realize that luck tends to average out.

[Martin Toal]

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

Why not?

The course is either tricked up or it isn't. Ryan Moore does not like tricked up courses and believes Pebble was tricked up.

If Pebble truly was tricked up (and I'm not saying it was) why would a couple of lucky bounces make him like it any better?

Not that a favorable Ruling is the same thing as a lucky bounce, these guys live and die by favorable Rulings every round of their lives.

Because, as a statistically cognizant person Brent, you realize that luck tends to average out.

I suspect Greg Norman does not agree with that.

Statistically speaking, it would also take a lot of trials (a lot more US Opens than any one player will play) for the distribution of luck to start to smooth out, and there would still and always be outliers in the distribution.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Predictable news items:

- Saturday after Thanksgiving:  retail sales yesterday on Black Friday were disappointing

- Early December:  drop-offs at the local firehouse Toys for Tots are low so far

- Mid-February on the West Coast:  guy with water probe in the Sierra says the snow pack is low...need more snow to avoid drought

- Monday after US Open: golf course unfair

[Jim Tang]

Everyone sort of knows what they're getting into before a U.S. Open, so it doesn't make much sense to complain about it after the fact.  I know Ryan was frustrated after playing that course for 4 days, but it's not like his opinion is going to change the USGA mind set, and in the end, his comments come off as just another tour player whinning after a U.S Open.

As mentioned earlier, it seemed the best way to play 17 was to get the ball in the bunker and then try to get it up and down.  I think that was the best way to also play 14, which Tiger proved by getting up and down from the bunker for birdie on Sunday.

At the same time, I'm not sure I want the best option to be a play for a hazard.  That seems a bit extreme.

[John Moore II]

My respect for Mr. Moore has increased!

Indeed, mine as well. He was spot on with his comments.

[Garland Bayley]

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

Why not?

The course is either tricked up or it isn't. Ryan Moore does not like tricked up courses and believes Pebble was tricked up.

If Pebble truly was tricked up (and I'm not saying it was) why would a couple of lucky bounces make him like it any better?

Not that a favorable Ruling is the same thing as a lucky bounce, these guys live and die by favorable Rulings every round of their lives.

Because, as a statistically cognizant person Brent, you realize that luck tends to average out.

I suspect Greg Norman does not agree with that.

Statistically speaking, it would also take a lot of trials (a lot more US Opens than any one player will play) for the distribution of luck to start to smooth out, and there would still and always be outliers in the distribution.

Martin,

It seems you are counting the wrong independent trials. Ryan was not saying that he was unlucky to lose this open, 1 trial. He was saying that the 280 plus trials he engaged in were so skewed to the unlucky side as to make him feel bad, poooooooor boooooooooy.

So how many trials do you think are necessary to smooth out the distribution.

[Jud_T]

The guys who spoke their mind have gained respect in my eyes.  How many more times can we hear the same old platitudes from guys with no personality regurgitating the company line?

[Steve_Lovett]

He's saying that if you are the recipient of tremendous luck, then you shouldn't complain so much about results dependent on luck.

Why not?

The course is either tricked up or it isn't. Ryan Moore does not like tricked up courses and believes Pebble was tricked up.

If Pebble truly was tricked up (and I'm not saying it was) why would a couple of lucky bounces make him like it any better?

Not that a favorable Ruling is the same thing as a lucky bounce, these guys live and die by favorable Rulings every round of their lives.

Because, as a statistically cognizant person Brent, you realize that luck tends to average out.

I suspect Greg Norman does not agree with that.

Statistically speaking, it would also take a lot of trials (a lot more US Opens than any one player will play) for the distribution of luck to start to smooth out, and there would still and always be outliers in the distribution.

Martin,

It seems you are counting the wrong independent trials. Ryan was not saying that he was unlucky to lose this open, 1 trial. He was saying that the 280 plus trials he engaged in were so skewed to the unlucky side as to make him feel bad, poooooooor boooooooooy.

So how many trials do you think are necessary to smooth out the distribution.

Garland,

He was stating his opinion.  I don't think he was feeling bad - but he felt that the setup, on a couple of holes in particular, were especially tricky and emphasized luck more than skill.  Never did he blame the conditions for the outcome.  In fact, I believe that he acknowledged the superior play of McDowell along the way - either in this interview or another that I saw.

When only a handful of the best players in the world can hit the green on a par-3, and many on this site acknowledge that the BEST play off the tee is into a hazard (a HAZARD), it's hard for me to disagree with Ryan's opinion.

The real issue on the 17th is that given the fronting bunker, it's a hole designed to be played through the air, with a setup so firm that it's more suited to the ground game.  When combined, you have what we saw Sunday...

Personally, I didn't mind the 14th so much.  It placed a superior premium on precisely controlling the golf ball around that green.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

He was stating his opinion.  I don't think he was feeling bad -...

Ryan Moore said:
“I don’t know,” he said. “I’ll probably keep playing them, just to torture myself once a year. I get angry, and it makes me hate golf for two months. Then I’m OK again.”

If you don't call that feeling bad, then I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Mike Cirba]

I think the most convincing argument here is simply, what would happen if we had Tom Kitish, 1992--like winds this past week.

Guys would still be out there.

[Steve_Lovett]

Garland,

He was stating his opinion.  I don't think he was feeling bad -...

Ryan Moore said:
“I don’t know,” he said. “I’ll probably keep playing them, just to torture myself once a year. I get angry, and it makes me hate golf for two months. Then I’m OK again.”

If you don't call that feeling bad, then I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'd call it a guy who loves the game.  Who's emotions were raw.  Who played the game he loves and excels at with others who are amongst the best in the world on a course which had holes set up in a way that he felt skill wasn't paramount.

When you're THAT good, and you execute shots that are THAT good, and you're used to being rewarded for those shots, and are instead punished - it must be maddening.  

I'm not that good - I can't identify.

Agree or disagree, I respect his opinion and didn't see it as whining any more than Jack Nicklaus whined about TPC Sawgrass in its early years when he described the challenge as "hitting a 5-iron onto the hood of a car".

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

He was stating his opinion.  I don't think he was feeling bad -...

Ryan Moore said:
“I don’t know,” he said. “I’ll probably keep playing them, just to torture myself once a year. I get angry, and it makes me hate golf for two months. Then I’m OK again.”

If you don't call that feeling bad, then I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'd call it a guy who loves the game.  Who's emotions were raw.  Who played the game he loves and excels at with others who are amongst the best in the world on a course which had holes set up in a way that he felt skill wasn't paramount.

When you're THAT good, and you execute shots that are THAT good, and you're used to being rewarded for those shots, and are instead punished - it must be maddening.  

I'm not that good - I can't identify.

Agree or disagree, I respect his opinion and didn't see it as whining any more than Jack Nicklaus whined about TPC Sawgrass in its early years when he described the challenge as "hitting a 5-iron onto the hood of a car".

I agree with Steve. The other part of this is that this is what these guys do for a living. Have random, unfair stuff happen to you  at your job and see  how you like it...

[Mike Cirba]

Sean,

You must not be in I.T.

Random and unfair would at least be predictable. 

[JohnV]

Where would you have them lay up to? This is NOT like 10 at Winged Foot due to the angle and nature of the green?

I was with Lee Westwood and Jason Allred on Sunday.  Both players hit the right side of the green.  Allred had to chip it over the rough, but both players made par.  Perhaps that is where a player should "layup".

[JohnV]

I'm reminded of a story told about my old boss at West Penn.  He was an official at LPGA Qualifying School at the University of New Mexico golf course a long time ago.  The players at a player meetinger were bitching about something.  He got up and said, "One of the best things about the UofNM golf course is that the airport is about 5 minutes away."

If you don't like it, you don't have to play.  See Lee Trevino at the Masters.

[Garland Bayley]

Steve and Sean,

What we have here is a professional golfer that is advocating changing the green on a world class golf course, because he is not physically able to execute the shots he thinks are necessary.

1. On this web site, there is a constant clamor against uneducated pros modifying golf courses to suit them. How does that not apply here?

2. The green he wants modified was one that yielded birdies and eagles.

I guess he must just be one of your homeboys.

[JohnV]

Forgot to mention that on Thursday, my group was on the 18th tee when a roar went up from 17.  I walked over and looked.  Charl Schwartzl had just hit it about one inch behind the hole.  He bounced it in the rough short of the ridge line and ridge fed over to the back left hole.  We only saw the result, but Jerry Kelly was very impressed.

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