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Steve_Lovett

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Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« on: June 21, 2010, 05:46:17 PM »
Ryan Moore's comments follow....  Thoughts?



Moore ties for 33rd, blasts USGA
ouch: Puyallup golfer says ‘tricky’ courses produce ‘horrible golf’



TODD MILLES; STAFF WRITER
Published: 06/21/1012:05 am
 
PEBBLE BEACH, Calif. – A good night’s sleep didn’t do much cool off any of Ryan Moore’s beefs with how the United States Golf Association sets up U.S. Opens.

The Puyallup golfer matched his best round of the week – a 2-over-par 73 at Pebble Beach Golf Links – and finished in a tie for 33rd at 12-over 296 in the 110th U.S. Open.

It was the eighth time he made the cut at a major championship – and his third in a row over the past two seasons.

Thrilled? Not exactly.

And after spending a fourth consecutive day desperately trying to get on a roll – attempting to make a few birdie putts on Pebble Beach’s crusty, bumpy surfaces – and coming up empty, Moore let off more steam Sunday afternoon about what it takes to win a U.S. Open.

Lots and lots of luck.

“U.S. Opens are U.S. Opens,” he said. “I feel like (the USGA) is … going for trickiness, to be honest. I’ve played in five now. Three out of five were just extremely tricky and they had nothing to do with being difficult.”

Moore used the steep 14th hole – in particular, its controversial green with about a 20-foot landing area – as an example of the how the USGA has turned the tournament into a showcase for embarrassing the best players in the world.

“They know they can do something about hole (No. 14). It would take not much to make that green halfway reasonable,” Moore said. “They refuse to do it. Beyond that, they make it more severe and tricky on top of it. I think they go for a spectacle or something. They want something to draw attention … or make everybody look stupid, I guess.

“It doesn’t reward good golf shots. That is why I don’t understand why you have a tournament that doesn’t reward good golf shots.”

As he stood on the 17th tee, he told his brother and caddie Jason that he couldn’t hit a shot that would hold on that green with a 7-iron, much less the high, cutting 4-iron shot he needed to get close from 205 yards.

“It’s just a horrible golf hole the way (the USGA) set it up,” Moore said. “I don’t know what they’re trying to demand. Where is the skill? I don’t know. If you can’t even hit a shot to stay on the green, where is the skill involved?”

Moore later said he could not “physically … hit the shots” the USGA requires to score at a U.S. Open.

On Sunday, he made one birdie – a tap-in 3-footer at the eighth hole – and spent the rest of his round hitting chips and trying to save pars with reasonably short putts.

He even had a visit to the beach when his drive kicked off the left side of the fairway on the 18th hole. He found his ball in high grass, hit it back into the fairway and ended up making par.

While Moore talked briefly with a small group of reporters, he was asked if he’d ever consider skipping a U.S. Open – as a sort of protest.

He paused.

“I don’t know,” he said. “I’ll probably keep playing them, just to torture myself once a year. I get angry, and it makes me hate golf for two months. Then I’m OK again.”

All of this is coming from a guy who won three USGA events as an amateur – the U.S. Amateur in 2004 and the U.S. Amateur Public Links in 2002 and 2004.

“I’m sure all of this is going to be printed, and (the USGA) is going to hate me,” Moore said. “But I’m OK with it. I’ve won three of their championships. I’m OK.”



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 05:50:30 PM »
IMHO if Ryan wants to see ridiculous course set up, he needs go no farther than home. His dad's course is ridiculously soft.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 05:50:44 PM »
My respect for Mr. Moore has increased!

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 05:52:12 PM »
Isn't this the same reason many pros SKIP "THE OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP" in July? Not their style of play or course? I don't see the USGA faltering away from even par being the winning score at future US Opens. That being said, I am surprised that these guys continue to complain about the conditions, like them or not, they (USGA and the course set up) certainly do a great job of "weeding out the field" to a select few who have a chance on Sunday to win it. On further thought, ironically, you can be 5 back, get on fire and if someone blows up, you still have a shot at winning. Personally, I don't agree or disagree about the way they set up the US Open course. It is, our national championship and for that it should be TOUGH!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 05:54:04 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 05:53:27 PM »
IMHO if Ryan wants to see ridiculous course set up, he needs go no farther than home. His dad's course is ridiculously soft.


A public course in Seattle? Shocker!!!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 05:56:24 PM »
Wow, I am really really disappointed in Ryan Moore, a golfer I have always respected and enjoyed following.

Objectively speaking, when 3 of the best golfers in the world finish in the top 5, and the winner is a proven pro with recent strong results, I have to question his premises.

Furthermore, part of the challenge of any major is surmounting the obstacles presented, not the obstacles of a typical golf course.

Can't figure out how to hold 17? Tough. Neither can anyone else. Figure out how to take the fewest strokes possible, that's the challenge.

A long long long time ago, Billy Casper laid up every day at the long par 3 at Winged Foot and parred it every day.

Everyone plays the same holes. Deal with it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 06:02:59 PM »
...
Moore later said he could not “physically … hit the shots” the USGA requires to score at a U.S. Open.
...

Guess he hasn't figured out there is a mental aspect to the game too. Otherwise, he is admitting that he is not as physically capable as Graeme.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 06:04:09 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?


Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 06:08:16 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



I know where you are going, but not sure I am on board. If they know the green can't or won't hold a shot why not play it differently, avoid the sand and high grasses/poor lies and lay up? Chip it within 5 feet and walk away happy with par?

Just out of curiosity, how many guys did that on Sunday? I bet none.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 06:08:39 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



This is just sour grapes from a guy who was so inept he chose a ridiculous club on 17 on Thursday, and almost ran it into the ocean on the other side of the 18th tee. Nothing tricky or unlucky about that result.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 06:16:49 PM »
Seems like the wrong attitude if he wants to be able to compete in this kind of tournament. You have to forget that it's ridiculous and realize everyone is playing the same course, no matter how ridiculous.

I had the same issue with Pulter's rant about the 7th on Saturday. So what if you couldn't get close to the hole (nevermind that DJ showed everyone it could be done). Accept that the real test of the hole then isn't the tee shot but whether you can get down in two from the back of the green.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 06:19:23 PM »
Yeah Garland - inept.   ::)

While assessing his body of work as a golfer - I don't think you have standing to call his approach to anything on the golf course inept.  In fact, I don't think that anyone on this site does.

While us couch potatoes might know that everyone (sans 7 lucky people ) couldn't hit the 17th green, those on the ground would have no way of knowing.

The event was a clown show yesterday...and I'm glad Moore said it.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 06:21:00 PM »
(nevermind that DJ showed everyone it could be done)

Yes, those guys should have known that all they had to do was chunk it ten yards short so they get the right bounce out of the rough.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 06:24:35 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



I know where you are going, but not sure I am on board. If they know the green can't or won't hold a shot why not play it differently, avoid the sand and high grasses/poor lies and lay up? Chip it within 5 feet and walk away happy with par?

Just out of curiosity, how many guys did that on Sunday? I bet none.
Richard, I think that is exactly how Tiger played 17 on Sunday: hit his fade so that it rolled across the green and into the rough, about pin high. From there, he had a simple chip and putt, which he executed.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 06:28:18 PM by Bill Brightly »

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »
I don't know that everyone knew this...  Would anyone think that the USGA would set up a par-3 with a green that virtually NO ONE could hold?


Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



I know where you are going, but not sure I am on board. If they know the green can't or won't hold a shot why not play it differently, avoid the sand and high grasses/poor lies and lay up? Chip it within 5 feet and walk away happy with par?

Just out of curiosity, how many guys did that on Sunday? I bet none.

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2010, 06:28:12 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



This is just sour grapes from a guy who was so inept he chose a ridiculous club on 17 on Thursday, and almost ran it into the ocean on the other side of the 18th tee. Nothing tricky or unlucky about that result.




He finished T33 - better than half of the field in the most grueling championship in golf.  Do you really think he was "inept"?

I suspect he had no qualms about being punished for the shot you mentioned, from an early round.

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 06:32:09 PM »
Well, 14th was entertaining. But really a silly green complex at those speeds IMO.

"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 06:32:30 PM »
(nevermind that DJ showed everyone it could be done)

Yes, those guys should have known that all they had to do was chunk it ten yards short so they get the right bounce out of the rough.

He did NOT chunk it...the ball hit the very front of the green, bounce about 10 yards foward, THEN took the spin and came back to the hole. He yelled at it to carry to the green. The ball listened.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2010, 06:34:14 PM »
One simple question, same as Shinney 04:

If it was all about luck, how do you explain the leaderboard?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2010, 06:42:48 PM »
Because Mickelsen and Woods are two of the best players in the world on the greens and around the greens.

As for that French dude - no idea....can't explain it.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2010, 07:02:42 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



I know where you are going, but not sure I am on board. If they know the green can't or won't hold a shot why not play it differently, avoid the sand and high grasses/poor lies and lay up? Chip it within 5 feet and walk away happy with par?

Just out of curiosity, how many guys did that on Sunday? I bet none.

Where would you have them lay up to? This is NOT like 10 at Winged Foot due to the angle and nature of the green?

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2010, 07:15:05 PM »
Let me ask.... IF the green on #17 can essentially not hold a shot, then nearly everyone in the field is left with a recovery shot of some kind from around the green, whether it be bunker or rough.

Since the green is the only predictably maintained portion of the golf hole, doesn't it mean that the 200+ yard tee shot is essentially counting on the hope of a decent lie in the rough or bunker for the recovery shot?

Although all players are playing the same hole, their lie in the rough or bunker likely has nothing to do with the skill of their shot.  Isn't this uncertainty the definition of luck?

And, isn't this what Ryan is saying - talking about "tricky", or "luck"?



I know where you are going, but not sure I am on board. If they know the green can't or won't hold a shot why not play it differently, avoid the sand and high grasses/poor lies and lay up? Chip it within 5 feet and walk away happy with par?

Just out of curiosity, how many guys did that on Sunday? I bet none.

Where would you have them lay up to? This is NOT like 10 at Winged Foot due to the angle and nature of the green?

Pretty sure that Casper laid up all 4 days on the 3rd hole at WFW, not the 10th hole.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2010, 07:16:26 PM »
Not sure what the problem is with his comments.  It sounds like he specifically pointed out the two shots on the course (approach to 14, tee shot on 17) that this board was debating throughout the week.  He does seem to be taking a defeatist attitude, but this is also what happens when you interview a guy shortly after he completed a difficult round on the most grueling course of year.  He was probably just frustrated at the time, but if that was his attitude throughout the event it's only hurting himself.

Our own Ran Morrissett said about 17 "a ridiculous hit and hope shot but this is even worse because at 225 yards, the golfer deserves something that approximates a target. Having to land a ball in the rough to brake it to stay on the left portion of the green doesn't count."  A debatable viewpoint but why be surprised when a player makes the same observation?

The problem here is that any competitor except the winner who makes these statements comes off as a whiner, no matter how accurate the comments.

Pebble Beach is personally not my favorite US Open course, but I did like the setup overall, although I do agree that 14 and 17 wound up being a bit silly.  I'm not sure the quality of the final leaderboard really says anything about the setup of the course.  The best players have an advantage no matter how the course is set up.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 07:21:18 PM by JLahrman »

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2010, 07:25:08 PM »
I thought this was one of the more mundane US Opens I've ever watched.  Purely defensive golf all day long.  Shave all that cabbage around the greens and bunkers and let the guys hit golf shots and not play roullette.

Sure, Dustin Johnson hit a poor wedge shot into the 1st green.  He missed the green by a couple of feet and was confronted by a virtually unplayable lie.  If the wind had ever picked up to 40 mph this tournament would have been a mockery, with the entire field having to play out of that crap.

The 17th green is a joke.  90% of the shots hit by the best golfers on the planet bounced through the green and into the greeside rough.  A lot of those same shots could have been filtered back down into the green if those same sides were closely mown.

So what if the winning score is -10?  The USGA's obsession with par is ruining this tournament for me.

They turned the fabulous Pebble Beach Golf Links into the Pebble Beach Cabbage Patch.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ryan Moore - comments on the USGA & tournament setup
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2010, 07:32:32 PM »
I thought this was one of the more mundane US Opens I've ever watched.  Purely defensive golf all day long.  Shave all that cabbage around the greens and bunkers and let the guys hit golf shots and not play roullette.

Scott, which are your favorite US Open setups (not courses, but setups)?

Personally, NOTHING could be worse than the way they set up Bethpage.  I know the rain has affected the course both times they've had the US Open there, but last year's especially was just plain dull.  Pinehurst's setup is my favorite, then Shinnecock.

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