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Terry Lavin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2010, 03:11:28 PM »
Jeff,

I agree with your observations about moving the fairways closer to the cliffs, but what about the 14th green and the 17th hole?  Would you recommend changes to the green at 14 or any change at all to any aspect of 17?  Those seem to be the two most glaring pressure points.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2010, 03:14:23 PM »
Phil, would your opinion change if they called 18 a par 4?

It wasn't the fact that it's a par 5 that allowed for McDowell's play, it's the fact that he had a 1 stroke lead and saw the results of Havret's play.

I found play yesterday to be a bit odd - great players, great architecture, yet not especially compelling viewing. Perhaps I'm simply biased in favor of the big guys, which if true, shame on me. Gotta think about it a bit more.

Please don't change 14! Pretty please!! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2010, 03:17:49 PM »
Calling all pro archies!!!!

 Its one of the great holes in golf. 


Jeff:

I've never understood this. Scenic? Yes. What makes it great, especially as the finishing hole of a major? Does the water really threaten anyone? Has it ever really produced any drama on the last hole of a major? Seems pretty easy to hit away from it, without a ton of trouble right. The second shot, for those going for the green in two, seems for whatever reason not to lend itself to shots as close to the hole as you see at Augusta's better risk-reward par 5s on the back nine.

I'd prefer the 18th at the US Open to be really tough, where par almost feels like birdie. We've had a run of several Opens -- BBlack, TPines, Pebble -- where that's not the case. I prefer the WFoot and Oakmont finishers. I like to see guys like Pavin pull off really difficult shots on the closing hole.


Terry Lavin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2010, 03:21:56 PM »
George:

I likewise didn't find the telecast all that compelling yesterday, but not because of who won and who puked.  I was just finding it difficult to stay transfixed while watching all of the choking, gagging and putt meandering and missing.  McDowell did a better job hanging onto the contents of his stomach than everybody else put together.  The amount of missed putts from what is normally a makeable range was truly astonishing.  That's what makes me think that the setup got a little astray, particularly on a handful of dicey holes.  When the winner makes a single birdie and comes from behind, I think it speaks somewhat negatively of the event itself, not the winner.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2010, 03:26:18 PM »
Phil, would your opinion change if they called 18 a par 4?

It wasn't the fact that it's a par 5 that allowed for McDowell's play, it's the fact that he had a 1 stroke lead and saw the results of Havret's play.

I found play yesterday to be a bit odd - great players, great architecture, yet not especially compelling viewing. Perhaps I'm simply biased in favor of the big guys, which if true, shame on me. Gotta think about it a bit more.

Please don't change 14! Pretty please!! :)

George:

18 at Pebble has always struck me as an in-between hole -- as I mentioned in my previous reply to JBrauer, not a true risk-reward hole, but also not a really hard par 5. You're right -- par is just an arbitrary figure, and the contest is who has the fewest strokes at the end, so par is really irrelevant. Pebble's 18th -- with current technology, its design, and USGA set-up -- doesn't strike me as anything special (Augustan Nat'l 13 and 15 strike me as the epitome of well-designed risk/reward par 5s) as a test of golf for the final hole of a championship. When the US Open went to Congressional in 1997 (it'll be there next year), they set up the 18th as a par 3, over a pond, apparently to do something different and maybe strike some fear in the players with the water. Asked about it, Tiger said it was nothing special -- if he had a one-stroke lead going into that hole, he said he'd merely "bunt" a 6-iron over the pond and onto the green, figuring he could two-putt from nearly anywhere.

But I've come up with a solution -- move the clubhouse to the back of 14 green and end the back nine there. Think of that back nine -- starts on #6, ends at #14!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2010, 03:27:07 PM »
Phil,

I don't know that 18 is inherently worse than any ANGC par 5 for drama.  It was shortened and the pin put in the open front area Sunday.  The water is in play. I didn't see anyone challenging it, and they were very near the trees as a result. Someone could have been blocked by them.

Terry,

IF I was to change 14, I might make the upper tier just a few feet deeper to make it accomodating, and maybe take out the fw chipping behind to maybe hold shots in.  But, it wouldn't be a flattening or a major change.

I was pleasantly surprised that despite not being overly long, those par 5 holes at Pebble mostly played as 3 shotters, mostly because of design.  And, even with a wedge in hand, hitting the second DZ fw instead of rough made a difference on 14.  You can't say that about many PGA Tour holes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2010, 03:27:40 PM »
Wouldn't 17 be a better hole if they moved the tee up 10-15 yards? I don't know what distance it played at the year Nicklaus hit the flagstick with his one iron, or how soft the greens were then, but this year most of the pros seemed to be hitting four irons, and that green was clearly not receptive to four irons.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2010, 03:46:36 PM »
Why didn't anyone this year just bank it off the pin like Jack?

Jeff B, gotta say, 13 and 15 at ANGC have much much much more drama than 18 at PB. Much. Don't see how anyone could conclude otherwise. Doesn't mean 18 is a bad finisher or that I'd change anything, but 13 and 15 provide much more interesting viewing. Much.

Much.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2010, 03:55:35 PM »
Mucho much.... ;)

Phil McDade

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2010, 04:06:09 PM »
17 would be a better hole if they bulldozed 30 yards of that Beach Club and built a green to the EAST of that silly amoeba bunker....

...either that or blow up those two back bunkers and take the green all the way out to the coastline...

Google Earth it and take a look....

Shivas:

Is the Beach Club the big house with the pool to the east of the 17th? Could you shift Cypress Drive slightly south, maybe move the cart path a bit, and locate a tee directly on the backside of the left greenside bunker on 3? There also appear to be some hedge issues with that building directly south of the 16th green...easily chopped down. A green slotted in between the amoeba bunker and the cliffs would be cool...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:09:27 PM by Phil McDade »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2010, 04:27:00 PM »
Why didn't anyone this year just bank it off the pin like Jack?

Jeff B, gotta say, 13 and 15 at ANGC have much much much more drama than 18 at PB. Much. Don't see how anyone could conclude otherwise. Doesn't mean 18 is a bad finisher or that I'd change anything, but 13 and 15 provide much more interesting viewing. Much.

Much.

Similar length, forced carries to get to the green rather than a narrow opening......

Are you sure you don't say that because you have had a chance to see about 30 majors decided on the back nine, on a course designed to bring a lot more players into the hunt, whereas Pebble has given us 4 majors to be decided?  And a few of those were decided earlier - Watson with a chip on 17, Tiger with a 15 shot lead, etc.  I can't recall the circumstances of Kite or Nicklaus's wins.

If McD had to have gone at 18 there would have been some drama. It just happened that he didn't.  Watching Phil and Ernie fan shots, while Johnson made it easily after being out of contention provided some drama to me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2010, 04:34:57 PM »

If McD had to have gone at 18 there would have been some drama. It just happened that he didn't.  Watching Phil and Ernie fan shots, while Johnson made it easily after being out of contention provided some drama to me.

It was also interesting to see that both Ernie and Phil made their mistakes away from the seawall -- Ernie failed to release the club, not wanting to hook it into the ocean, and Phil released too soon, not wanting to slice the ball into the ocean. The troubles at 13 and 15 at ANGC are primarily in front of the green, so the drama is in the carry, not so much the direction. Different kinds of holes. I like PB #18 a lot.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2010, 04:37:23 PM »
If McD had to have gone at 18 there would have been some drama. It just happened that he didn't.  Watching Phil and Ernie fan shots, while Johnson made it easily after being out of contention provided some drama to me.

Well, if that's your standard for drama...yawn.

What were we talking about?

Forget 30 versus 5. Compare the last 5 Masters against the 5 Pebble Opens, 18 versus 13 and 15. No contest.

Granted, that's like comparing the homecoming queen from my graduating high school class - a beauty for sure - to a supermodel - but you made the comparison in drama, not I.

18 is a fine closer for an Open. It's just not a high drama hole. But there is plenty of that already at Pebble. Maybe if two guys were tied going in, it would provide the necessary drama, but it's not going to provide it on its own, like 13 or 15. (or 17 or 12 or... :))
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2010, 04:53:32 PM »
George,

First, you must have better recall to pull five Masters out of the air, or even the circumstances of 5 PB opens out.  I am not going to bother looking it up, but feel part of the "problem" is that the Masters holes occur when many more people are in contention than at the 18th in Open conditions when most have faded away.

Second, you really haven't explained how the architecture contributes to lack of drama, you have just puffed your chest and said you are right, no contest......

Rick explains the major difference - frontal carry vs later hazard.  Of course, the lateral hazard on the tee ball is much better at PB.  13 at ANGC is similar, but not as visually dramatic, but both need a nice draw to get around the corner the furthest.  ANGC 15 is a nothing tee shot.

So is that it?  The narrow opening at 18PB kills it for you?  What if you were a shorter hitter and that opening made the difference in you getting home in two for a chance at the Open?  Esp given your sig line?  You prefer a par 5 that requires a high shot to clear a pond in two?  How does that reconcile?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Greg Tallman

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2010, 04:55:17 PM »
It would seem that the opportunity is there to create one of the great short pr 4's in golf at the 4th WITHOUT shortening it to where players can reach with hybrids or irons.

I might be inclined to reconfigure the green to be slightly more diagonal and running to the cliff's edge.

17 I think Matt Ward might be correct in his assessemnt that it would be better if played from under 200 yards.

You guys will love this but why not throw a penal pot bunker between the two trees on #18 fairway?

14 is fine... for the best players in the world and OK on a daily basis with greens at 10 or so.

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2010, 05:10:21 PM »
Second, you really haven't explained how the architecture contributes to lack of drama, you have just puffed your chest and said you are right, no contest......

Of course I did, that is standard arguing in today's world, did you expect anything different? :)

Seriously, I am not comparing the architectural attributes, I am simply comparing results. When someone steps up his tee shot, his 2nd shot, or his 3rd shot at either of the ANGC holes, there is much greater drama than ANY of the shots at Pebble. It's not anyone's fault, it's simple observation, biased opinion that it may be. Even the "nothing" tee shot on 15 you describe, at least one is left wondering if the drive will result in a green light or a red light. At Pebble, the tee shots in the Open are almost uniformly "Will this result in a go shot with little drama, or a layup with less?"

That is of course a gross oversimplification, but I hope it illustrates my point.

Let me put it a different way: If McDowell were playing the 15th as his final hole, would he have automatically laid up after seeing Havret miss his birdie putt? If he had, would the approach have been more or less dramatic?

Again, this is not to criticise the 18th, it's simply not as dramatic as the 13th or 15th at ANGC.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2010, 05:16:45 PM »
Absolutely he would have laid up.  Maybe the approach would have been more dramatic, because it could always spin back in the water, but that is also a function of the easier USGA pin position.  It is traditionally behind the bunker, which might have caught a short shot, and then provided MORE drama in that he could have gotten up and down to preserve the win or create a tie.  In the water at ANGC 15 would have resulted in a drop and a tie or a loss.  Maybe not more dramatic, nor less. 

About all the same, unless McD came up short on the wedge and went in the 15 water.  How many third shots have gone in that pond?

I think your argument still hints at it being a matter of circumstance.  Hey, going for the Open title isn't drama enough?  Yeah, the birdie fest that was Augusta on Sunday was always fun, but the US Open has always been different.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2010, 05:24:13 PM »
About all the same, unless McD came up short on the wedge and went in the 15 water.  How many third shots have gone in that pond?

I think your argument still hints at it being a matter of circumstance.  Hey, going for the Open title isn't drama enough?  Yeah, the birdie fest that was Augusta on Sunday was always fun, but the US Open has always been different.

Too many...

But ultimately we're splitting hairs. All 3 are wonderful holes, I just don't think 18 quite measures up to 13 or 15 for drama. Hey, there has to be an ugliest Victoria's Secret angel, too. Doesn't mean she's not smokin'...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2010, 05:32:00 PM »
I sponsored a previous thread on 17

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27004.0/ 

that includes a cute suggested reworking of the hole's plan by Matt Cohn, in concert with Shivas' recommendation on getting it closer to the ocean.

The green-side cabbage in the inside of the right-hand bunkers on 17 that Ernie Els found himself in on on Thursday, I think it was, should go.   

I thought 18 played perfectly, and what you call it (par 4 or 5) has absolutely no bearing on how the players approach it. Where the tee is, and where their tee shots end up, and where they are in the tournament, makes all the difference.

After all the teeth-gnashing about #14, I note that Tiger Woods played it in 2-under for the weekend.  Players yelling "unfair" about this hole should be required to write "I saw TW play PB14 in 2 under" 500 times on the blackboard after they get done whining and before they're invited back.

Mike Benham

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2010, 08:50:46 PM »

To define what changes might be needed to Pebble in 9 years, someone needs to tell me how far the young lads will hit the ball.

It is rather shocking to see how short some of the holes played, granted the normal wind direction was in full force for the week but one must agree that lengthening the course had zero effect on increasing the final score.

I would suggest that many of the golfers will look at a more spinny golf ball as the yardages of the Open courses quit growing in length.

I'm waiting for 2012, it will be interesting to see how few drivers and fairway woods some of the longer hitters will hit at Olympic, assuming the USGA gets the conditions as firm and fast as Pebble.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2010, 08:55:05 PM »
Mike,

Between the naturally wet weather in SF, and all the cross slope in those Olympic fairways, the USGA may have to make an exception to firm and fast at Olympic, if in fact that becomes their style. I remember lots of tee balls rolling into the rough two opens ago at Olympic and they had to be cut longer than they might be cut now.  Whereas Ryan Moore complained about PB, back then, pros didn't dare complain about it to the USGA.  Privately, it was a different matter though and the most charitable thing the ones I knew would say is that at least everybody else couldn't hit the fariways either.

I also wonder if they will want Merion fairways firm and fast, since its such a short course?  The, with the greens at Chambers Bay and a long course, they may want firm and fast fw, but slow greens or they will be unputtable.  The USGA may have some very targeted course set ups in the next half decade.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BVince

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Re: Changes to Pebble Beach Before Next US Open
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2010, 11:39:16 PM »
Nothing at all, just remove the overnight stay requirement ;)
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

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