[TEPaul]

I'd say the 2010 US Open at Pebble Beach was the first modern US Open that dedicatedly tried to acheive true firm and fast conditions throughout, particularly on the fairways and approaches but also on the greens (it was possible to check and spin the ball on the greens or some of them but it seems it could only be done strategically from particular approach positions to particular positions on the greens).

I was out there for most of the week and the new term for this kind of thing seems to be some variation of "the Era of Mike Davis."

Personally I love it, really love it, and Mike Davis has been on something of a roll this way since he took over as the Competitions Director of the USGA.

I think he nailed it and I think he thinks he nailed it. To nail it obviously Mother Nature (not too much rain) has to cooperate and Mike has been pretty lucky that way with his last three US Opens.

On the other hand, it seems like some spectators, even on this website that is reputedly into true firm and fast conditions is somewhat amibivalent about it and the way it was done at PB----as well as the particular champion it produced. Frankly, while out there on the ground it was not as easy to appreciate the over-all look of Pebble, particularly the greens. I had to see it on TV from Philly to really appreciate how moddled and splotchy those greens really did look----a look I love, by the way----eg natural looking!

After all this time, does this mean American championship golf at the US Open level is somewhat returning to the real roots of golf and playability of the old days (pre-ultra irrigation)? I would say it has to mean that to some significant degree.

I think that's a good thing and a good message for the USGA to send and show! I know Mike Davis a little bit and have spoken with him about this kind of goal (and others) a little bit over the years.

I think he gets it, really "gets it."

How about the spectators, do they "get it?"  Some probably do and some don't, even on here, or at least they don't appear to completely embrace it for various reasons; all of which might be worthy of discussion as well. Will the vast majority ever come around or are we (over here) still too used to the way things have been over here for so many decades of the so-called Modern Age of golf and golf architecture?

PS:
By the way, what Pebble showed this week of the US Open is what I call the Ideal Maintenance Meld (IMM) for a golf course of that age and architecture. And I really do mean IDEAL!

PPS:
It looks like even the US PGA Tour is getting into firm and faster conditions even though the US Open at Pebble took it to a greater extreme. I think my facts are correct in saying that with Graeme MacDowell's win at Pebble this mean that seven of the last eight winners this year have been non-Americans. Are the new more firm and fast conditions and set-ups over here a primary contributor to that statistic?

[Steve Kline]

TEP - I agree. I thought the course looked fantastic on TV. I really don't care if there are spots or brown areas or whatever. I want natural. Also, the mowing lines looked fantastic and the fairway bunkers were actually in the fairway. I don't think Pebble ever looked so good. I had never been that high on the course from just watching the Crosby. Then I played it about three or four years ago and liked it much more - although I think 12 and 15 are very bland holes. Then after seeing the course the way it is was presented this weekend I thought to myself I would really love to play it again if that was going to be the IMM while I was there.

[Gary Slatter]

If IMM becomes the norm for daily maintenance it could reduce the cost of market priced greens fees (by eliminating 80% of golfers). Maybe for championships it's OK but not every course can handle it.   Many courses, including Pebble, don't have the correct mix short of the green.

I loved the OPen, the winner, and the conditions, except I don't feel it's right to eliminate 50% of the greens surface on such small greens.  And I don't care what Mr Fay said, they looked and putted BADLY.  Plinko is not a golf game and many "putts" from above the cup looked like plinko.

And Mr Paul, it was very difficult on TV to figure out where the hole was as the balls bobbed and weaved away from it. 

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
They seem to be headed in the right direction but a longs ways to go IMHO....still a lot of fluff..bunker maintenance and most of all there were too many different heights of cut....I saw a few where they were still handmowing the approaches....and a lot of fertilizer was used on those grasses around the greens....but looked much better...
OT...did my little buddy behave out there ?

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

There are diminishing returns to what we may achieve by withholding water from greens, and we saw that this weekend.

On TV the ball was zig zagging 4 inches left and right on the last 3 or 4 revolutions of roll to the hole. And we gotta assume that they were rolling them plenty to avoid that.

If a guy's technique is designed to drop his ball in the hole on the last 6 or 12 inches of roll, he didn't have a chance on those greens. I'm sorry Tom, but that is just wrong to punish good putting technique like that in championship play. And why? So that you could reward good iron play? And on greens that are so small that you don't even need to trick them up to do that?  

Saturday's leader was the worst choke in US Open Sunday history. That's gotta tell you that something is odd right there.  

And all of this begs the question: do we need to start placing an asterisk by every USGA event that suffers the misfortune of rain? Are those events not true championship events anymore?  

[TEPaul]

Gary:

I agree with you that the kind of IMM they got at Pebble this week in the Open is not for golfers generally----it's for golfers of the caliber that play in national Opens. Frankly any 10-15 handicapper would probably be completely incapable of ever breaking 100 on a course set up like PB was for this year's open.

There are a number of factors that contribute but in my opinion, the best and most effective way to still retain this kind of IMM for golfers generally is to just dial down some on the green surface firmness and dial down a whole lot on the greenspeeds, and if that were done on a course like this one with that kind of firmness "through the green" golfers generally would be able to play it effectively and actually probably really enjoy it. This is the way I believe it is generally done abroad, even in the British Open----eg they do not or hardly ever try to run greenspeeds as high as the US Open does. If they did I think they understand that they run the risk of creating a freak show or actually having to stop play if the wind happened to get up to where balls could not be replaced and remain at rest on some of the greens.

[Terry Lavin]

The line between fair and unfair is hard to identify and maintain.  I don't think it was crossed in too many areas this past week, but the  REALLY F&F setup led to some pretty indefensible situations, particularly at 3, 14 and 17.  They still like to inflict suffering and don't mind punishing good shots.

[TEPaul]

"OT...did my little buddy behave out there ?"


MikeY:

He did even though I can see the potential for "badness" or whatever it is you mentioned that I should keep an eye out for. But with a level-headed mentor and chaperone like me around him at all times the real-world opportunities were minimized.

Actually, last Monday or Tuesday we both hied on over to Cypress with a truly wonderful member couple who just happened to live within about a high faded 7 iron off the massive media Center of the Open. The member lady was hosting three French speaking guests she did not know (as you know Bob speaks beautiful French). One of the guests was a truly beautiful French lady who could REALLY play!! She won the 1995 NCAAs and believe me I have seen a lot of really beautiful golf swings in my life and times but hers was just about the most beautiful I've ever seen.

And then we were all invited to dinner together at that house within a high faded 7 iron of the media center. During that dinner for some reason the subject came up of how often some of us were married. I think she said 2 and a half times which I could see got The Cros twitching and figgeting as he sat next to her at the dinner table while rambling on in French. I don't speak The French so I don't know what they were saying but I do know where he bunked that night and I seriously doubt she was within ten miles of him at that point.

So yes, I took good care of him as you asked me to.

PS:
I think I also got him out of the West Coast at the right time because after a week in that super-charged Open atmosphere around the media center he and a few of his new friends were getting pretty giddy and they were beginning to eye this little red-headed media cutie who looked to me to be about fourteen years old.

[Mike_Young]

"OT...did my little buddy behave out there ?"


MikeY:

He did even though I can see the potential for "badness" or whatever it is you mentioned that I should keep an eye out for. But with a level-headed mentor and chaperone like me around him at all times the real-world opportunities were minimized.

Actually, last Monday or Tuesday we both hied on over to Cypress with a truly wonderful member couple who just happened to live within about a high faded 7 iron off the massive media Center of the Open. The member lady was hosting three French speaking guests she did not know (as you know Bob speaks beautiful French). One of the guests was a truly beautiful French lady who could REALLY play!! She won the 1995 NCAAs and believe me I have seen a lot of really beautiful golf swings in my life and times but hers was just about the most beautiful I've ever seen.

And then we were all invited to dinner together at that house within a high faded 7 iron of the media center. During that dinner for some reason the subject came up of how often some of us were married. I think she said 2 and a half times which I could see got The Cros twitching and figgeting as he sat next to her at the dinner table while rambling on in French. I don't speak The French so I don't know what they were saying but I do know where he bunked that night and I seriously doubt she was within ten miles of him at that point.

So yes, I took good care of him as you asked me to.

I knew he was big into french philosophy.... he taught me to say "parlor view frans say".....

[Adam Clayman]

Beware ! TePaul has drunk the kool aid which has dimininshed his memory and made him a USGA apologist. How quickly he's forgotten Shiney in '04 where he predicted that once one of those top caliber players aimed away from the pin, it would signal the greatest IMM in recent championship memory. The corrective watering done at Pebble early in the competition was a result of the revisionist history that began as soon as Shiney's champion was crowned. One side effect is reading that there is a fine line between fair and unfair.

[TEPaul]

MikeY:

You said French philosophy, huh? Well, I guarantee you that to The French the idea of philosophy is far broader than with most any other culture in the Universe. You can tell right out of the box when they kiss you on both cheeks and expect you to kiss them on both cheeks! And again, I don't speak The French but with some of them just the sound of it alone seems sort of like they are making love!  

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I'm not too sure what you're driving at with Post #9.

Don't forget, the '04 Open at Shinnecock was before Mike Davis took over as the USGA Competitions Director and it was also Shinnecock where he was the first to identify the over the top set up that was not something he was calling for-----with those prescient words early Sunday morning over the radio somewhat reminiscent of Apollo 13-----eg "I think we have a problem." 

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I particularly don't know what you are driving at when you called me "a USGA apologist" in Post #9 but if it has anything at all to do with my inclination to take with a grain of salt some of the automatic criticisms of some on here of just about anything the USGA does, then yes I guess I should be considered a USGA apologist.

[Adam Clayman]

Just poking a little fun back at you Tom. I was surprised at some of your comments over the weekend about the architecture. 5 and 15 particularly. Have a good day

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I thought you were just poking fun. I guess I know what you're referring to about 5 and 15. I'd never seen #5 before and I was impressed with it. I think a mid fairway bunker on #15 is a great idea but the one there now is terrible in my opinion. It's not in the right place and it's far too big. But to do what I think would be right on that hole with a mid fairway bunker they'd also need to expand that fairway well to the right.

[Carl Johnson]

Beware ! TePaul has drunk the kool aid which has dimininshed his memory and made him a USGA apologist. How quickly he's forgotten Shiney in '04 where he predicted that once one of those top caliber players aimed away from the pin, it would signal the greatest IMM in recent championship memory. The corrective watering done at Pebble early in the competition was a result of the revisionist history that began as soon as Shiney's champion was crowned. One side effect is reading that there is a fine line between fair and unfair.

Please clue me in.  What's "IMM" mean?

[TEPaul]

I should add that I think this US Open was the IMM but with the caveat that the greenspeeds were, as usual with modern US Open target speeds, perhaps two feet or at least a foot too fast. I just don't think target speeds with greens like those need to be 13 for anyone at any time, not even the best players in the world. But all the rest of the set up was perfect (the Ideal Maintenance Meld (IMM)) in my mind.

Greenspeed in the 11-13+ range on greens like those are a true modern phenomenon that produces a remarkable "exponential playablity" effect that is complex and a large and another whole topic of discussion and consideration.

I think the primary reason is at that differential (11-13+) friction (on the green surface) is just down to a level where ball creep just completely takes over. Frankly, if those greens had been really smooth and had not been a bit bumpy and such (some on here called them "pitted") as they were that kind of "ball creep" at this year's Open would've been far worse and maybe even ultimately embarrassing to the USGA.

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Paul,

What did you think of holes 14 & 17?

I thought they were unplayable and ridiculous.

[TEPaul]

Carl:

I would tend to agree with you. I think there could be a complex fix (architectural) or an easy fix (just make both more receptive by making them both less "firm").

[Wayne_Kozun]

If IMM becomes the norm for daily maintenance it could reduce the cost of market priced greens fees (by eliminating 80% of golfers). Maybe for championships it's OK but not every course can handle it.

But the IMM couldn't happen on a regular basis because (1) getting a course to US Open conditions means putting a lot of stress on the course, particularly the greens and you can't do this over a long period of time (assuming you had dry weather for a long period), and (2) there is a fair bit of rain at PB at many times of the year which will leave the course much softer than the IMM.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

What will be interesting, and perhaps determine the future of PGA Tour golf, is the resultant feed back from the players.

If the USGA isn't going to do something about the I&B, perhaps F&F will be plan "B" in trying to compensate and combat the distance problem.

In all of my life I don't recall golfers bombing the ball OVER those trees in the 18th fairway with their drives.

[David_Madison]

TEPaul:

Wasn't Pinehurst set up as fast through the fairways and greens? I was out there and balls were bouncing and running really well, but without some of the impossible to access pin positions we saw this weekend. I saw a lot of shots hit from the rough played 10-30 yards short of the greens and bounced/rolled on. The fairways might not have been wide enough, or certainly as wide as they were at Pebble, but the course played pretty hot.

[Wayne_Kozun]

In all of my life I don't recall golfers bombing the ball OVER those trees in the 18th fairway with their drives.

Don't forget that the tees were up, at least on Saturday and Sunday, encouraging the players to be more aggressive.

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

I thought you were just poking fun. I guess I know what you're referring to about 5 and 15. I'd never seen #5 before and I was impressed with it. I think a mid fairway bunker on #15 is a great idea but the one there now is terrible in my opinion. It's not in the right place and it's far too big. But to do what I think would be right on that hole with a mid fairway bunker they'd also need to expand that fairway well to the right.

I'd agree to a mid fairway bunker on 15, if it were in keeping with the other center line bunkers on the course. The current one appears to be air lifted out of some other course, and while it's gathering nature is cool, as you say. it just does not fit.
It's been a repeated error of several other architects lately, to make these center pots out of scale. Diminishing their strategic value because there's less fairway to one side of the other, making that side, not an option. #9 at Sebonack, #10 at Dismal River etc.

The 5th hole is not horrible, it just is not as gret as it could've been, and, it's effect on the routings flow, is a great loss from the older version of Pebble beach.

[John Moore II]

I think the fairway and green surround conditions were great, but the greens got too firm over the weekend to be more than goofy golf given their size. They needed to be just slightly softer and slightly slower in speed; I've been saying that breathlessly for a couple of days now.

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