[Jordan Wall]

Why all the hate for Pebble?

The bunkers are fantastic, all the time on here people complain about how fairways need to be mowed into bunkers to make them more in play yet once it finally happens nobody is happy and it is out of place.  The bunkers and mowing patters in general are awesome and should be commended; I would love to see mowing patters like this in future US Opens.

I also like the diversity that Pebble has been set up for.  Obviously you can only mix up a course so much for a US Open but the fourth playing 281 yesterday, the fifth at under 150 on Thursday, the seventh at under 100 yesterday, and some other changes in tee boxes has made for some fun with exceptional shots out there to be had (ie Dustin Johnson's eagle on 4 yesterday).  Awesome.

The low scores show that the USGA is doing a great job of making things interesting.  Yet, as only three players are under par, it also goes to show that the USGA hasn't made this a cakewalk either.  Pebble proves that length isn't needed for difficulty.  This has been a great US Open to watch and I can't wait to watch the finale today. Kudos to the USGA and shame on the gca'ers doing everything they can to nitpick at Pebble.

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

You can point out the positives without being a cheerleader.  The event has also shown a couple of the holes to be pretty extreme.

The one thing I took away from watching six hours yesterday was how many places the outside edge of the green contains a downslope, so if the pin is close to one side and you leave yourself short-sided you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to get your little pitch or bunker shot within 6-7 feet.  The shots from the left greenside bunker on #4 were the first time I noticed it yesterday, but at least half the holes have something of this feature.

I know that Jack Nicklaus tried scrupulously to avoid such "unfair" greenside shots at Sebonack and I think that's the case for most modern architects, but it is certainly a feature which rewards position play ... and defends par to the death.

[paul cowley]

 Jordan....if the was a 'like' key on this DG I would be pushing it as per your last post!

[Andy Troeger]

I'm with you Jordan--the course looks fantastic.

[paul cowley]

Tom...it seems with time the course is morphing into a mini version of what happened to Pine Hurst #2. Its diminishing greens and increased internal slopes due to sand splash has made major changes in just the course of my life time.

I remember considering #14 an eagle opportunity whenever I played it, which was frequently 35 years ago, and I made a few....blew it up the right side and putted left.
The green is so much smaller now and the kick slope behind the left green side bunker is so much stronger that obviously nothing holds there  and the hole has become a true three shotter.

So many holes have changed.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

You can point out the positives without being a cheerleader.  The event has also shown a couple of the holes to be pretty extreme.

Since when does pointing out positives make me a cheerleader?

The one thing I took away from watching six hours yesterday was how many places the outside edge of the green contains a downslope, so if the pin is close to one side and you leave yourself short-sided you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to get your little pitch or bunker shot within 6-7 feet.  The shots from the left greenside bunker on #4 were the first time I noticed it yesterday, but at least half the holes have something of this feature.

Tom, this is a US Open and as such tests the best players in the world with the most extreme set up without being unfair.  Bottom line, don't short side yourself.  The banks are shaved for everyone, and it's the players who think their way around the course that can play 20 feet to the other side of the pin to avoid short siding themselves that will succeed.  Pebble has played anything unfair and has even surrendered some low numbers.  Do you consider these downslopes unfair?  I personally love them.

And, with regards to number four, it played 281 yards yesterday.  Any player who hit it in the left greenside bunker deserved to have an extremely tough shot.  Whats a 6-7 foot putt for the best players in the world, anyways!?

I know that Jack Nicklaus tried scrupulously to avoid such "unfair" greenside shots at Sebonack and I think that's the case for most modern architects, but it is certainly a feature which rewards position play ... and defends par to the death.

So, you like these trimmed downslopes on the basis that it rewards position play!?  I like them because it forces players to think and execute, and position play would be the definition of 'think', which is definitely a plus in my book.

I understand you've seen Pebble much more than I and know the course for what it was and how it has changed.  However, I know the course for what it is now, and I believe it to be fantastic.

[Mac Plumart]

Take it for what it is worth...

but the brain-trust here at Golf Club Atlas regarded the golf holes at Pebble Beach at a fairly elite level in the Mock Draft held a few months back.

Here are the results for the course in question...Pebble Beach 7 total holes selected...#'s 3,6,7,8,9,10,18

Either we are stupid as a collective group (a real possibility) or the course doesn't suck all that badly.   

[John Moore II]

Pebble Beach is certainly a great golf course, but I have to agree with Tom that some of the holes border on silly. 7 and 17 are the prime examples of this. I will say that I think they are fine holes and I don't really see a reason for people to be able to get it close, but I do think that in general, well struck shots aught to be rewarded and not have it be a crap shoot (of course, I've said that on 17 I don't think I have seen a player hit what I consider to be the ideal shot, but there really is only one shot to be had on 7, and you can't get it close, I don't like that). Pebble just has some real odd stuff about it, you can't really deny that.

[Jordan Wall]

Pebble Beach is certainly a great golf course, but I have to agree with Tom that some of the holes border on silly. 7 and 17 are the prime examples of this. I will say that I think they are fine holes and I don't really see a reason for people to be able to get it close, but I do think that in general, well struck shots aught to be rewarded and not have it be a crap shoot (of course, I've said that on 17 I don't think I have seen a player hit what I consider to be the ideal shot, but there really is only one shot to be had on 7, and you can't get it close, I don't like that). Pebble just has some real odd stuff about it, you can't really deny that.

You've never even seen the golf course in person, have you?

[John Moore II]

Pebble Beach is certainly a great golf course, but I have to agree with Tom that some of the holes border on silly. 7 and 17 are the prime examples of this. I will say that I think they are fine holes and I don't really see a reason for people to be able to get it close, but I do think that in general, well struck shots aught to be rewarded and not have it be a crap shoot (of course, I've said that on 17 I don't think I have seen a player hit what I consider to be the ideal shot, but there really is only one shot to be had on 7, and you can't get it close, I don't like that). Pebble just has some real odd stuff about it, you can't really deny that.

You've never even seen the golf course in person, have you?

No, and I don't give a damn that you have.

[Andrew Summerell]

With all the houses & buildings on the edge of fairways that I saw last time I was there, I thought it was a housing estate course. 

[Tim Gavrich]

Jordan--

I don't think anyone in the DG would claim they "hate" Pebble Beach.  However, just because it is Pebble Beach and is "the greatest meeting of land and sea" and all the rest of it, it still is not immune from the same scrutiny that every golf course put in the spotlight receives on this site whenever a major championship rolls around.  The overall sentiment about Pebble seems to be pretty homogenous as expressed by many people: that it has many very good/excellent holes, but it also has some holes that have the potential to become a little hokey or weak under a U.S. Open setup or even normal circumstances.

The most interesting aspect of your original post, to me, seems to be that a lot of your praise is for the USGA's setup of the course, not the course in itself.  You cite the elasticity of some of the tee placements as a major positive.  I absolutely agree, but ever since Mike Davis assumed his position as the main USGA setup man, that has happened at other USGA Championship venues as well.  Also, the immediate fairway-sand transitions and the mowing patterns are also a product of the changing setup philosophy of the USGA.  This sort of thing will probably be happening going forward in U.S. Opens, no matter the venue.

All week, the NBC, ESPN, and Golf Channel pundits have all but declared Pebble Beach the greatest championship course on earth and the one true home of the U.S. Open.  The reaction to that treatment, by some on GCA (myself included, to a fair extent) is, "Not so fast, everybody.  There are plenty of other worthy sites for the U.S. Open."  I don't think that that sort of reaction is so unreasonable or unfair or biased.  I would still say that this U.S. Open has been excellent and we're in for a great day today.

[Tim Bert]

Jordan

I think the setup has been great this week. I thought the pin on 7 yesterday was a bit anti-climactic but Johnson proved me wrong there. It appears it just required a very superior shot to get it close. Other than that i think they've done some good things with how they presented the course for the past few days.

[John Moore II]

Jordan

I think the setup has been great this week. I thought the pin on 7 yesterday was a bit anti-climactic but Johnson proved me wrong there. It appears it just required a very superior shot to get it close. Other than that i think they've done some good things with how they presented the course for the past few days.

That pin on 7 yesterday didn't require a superior shot, it required a lucky one. Watch the replays, Johnson thought he'd dumped it into the bunker, not hit it close. He miss hit that shot, plain and simple.

Oh yeah, course presented great.    7 players so far today have hit the green in regulation on 17. One birdie all day on 17. I saw no one get it within 15-20 feet of the hole on 7, 7 birdies all day. 14 lists 11 birdies on the USGA website, but doesn't list how many 'others' there were. Those three holes were stupid. Even Johnny Miller just said those (he was talking about 17 specifically) greens are too firm for the shots they are receiving. There has been absolutely no excitement on this course this afternoon.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

you are 100% correct on your last sentence.  No excitement whatsoever.  Simply watching all players score go up and up and up.  No one is charging, no one is going low.  Hanging on for dear life is all that is happening.

No one can hold a green, no one can hole a putt.  Is that the course or the players?

[Mac Plumart]

Boy...it looks like the players to me.

Phil and Ernie in the bunker on 18.  Havert leaving clutch putts short.  McDowell in a bunker.  Woods way off line.

Ugh!

[Terry Lavin]

Pebble is great, but this isn't a great Open, that's for sure.

Regrettably, I think they lost their moorings with the setup for this championship.  The severity of the setup exacerbated some of the design shortcomings of this great course and rendered it somewhat silly in spots.

[Terry Lavin]

No one can hold a green, no one can hole a putt.  Is that the course or the players?

The combo platter...

[Carl Rogers]

The 14th green is a do over.  Lower the top by 4 feet.  Raise the bottom by 3 feet.  Keep the essence of it in tact.

The 17th green needs to be 3 yards larger in all directions.

Otherwise, it is fine.

[John Moore II]

SOFTEN THE GREENS AND NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE!!!!!!!

[jeffwarne]

SOFTEN THE GREENS AND NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE!!!!!!!

John,
I would disagree.
I think it's OK to seperate players with firm greens(ok maybe 17 was a bit extreme), but you can't combine that with plinko greens
where not one putt can be made wihout fear of a return plinko 5 footer

[Bill_Yates]

Holy hypocrites!

Is this the same GCA crowd that has been touting "firm and fast" as the only true form of golf? 

I say that what we saw was golf, real golf, firm and fast golf, with Tiger putting on to the 8th hole from twenty yards short of the green and leaving it 10 feet short.  The other fifty weeks of the year (I'm taking away one more week for the Open Championship at St Andrews), watching golf is more like watching a game of darts.

It's not that the course was impossible, at least it wasn't for an Irishman from Portrush, it's that the game needing to be played was different.

[Jim Hoak]

I am amazed with all the discussion/criticism of #14, that few players or commentators saw the obvious answer to playing the hole--until Tiger showed them today.  The way to play the hole is to hit the second shot as far as you can--even if into the front, green-side bunker--and blast out from there.  Tiger had a tap-in putt.  Laying back just invites trouble.  The problem isn't the  hole; it's the strategy.  Not all par-5's need to be birdie holes.

[Jordan Wall]

SOFTEN THE GREENS AND NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE!!!!!!!

Earth to John, it's the US Open.  Maybe you missed the memo?

It was a great tournament.

[Tim_Cronin]

I thought it was a hell of a test for a course barely over 7,000 yards.

Fast greens? I hope so; it is a major, after all, not the Crosby.

Should the 14th green be a little bigger? Sure. So go back to the original contours, or whatever looks fair on the oldest photos or film/tape. Meanwhile, as Jim mentioned, play it the way Woods did, if you can.

The 7th and 17th? Hit the right shot, and you're in business. Can't shape a 210-yard shot to the 17th? Then why are you in the field? And if a 92-yard lob wedge can't be stopped close, then it's the Indian, not the target of the arrow, at fault.

Under par wins if Dustin Johnson isn't kidnapped before the final round.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()