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Lynn Shackelford

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2002, 09:52:16 AM »

Quote
Turboe

Reynolds Park is in Winston-Salem.  I believe it is a public course as well.  It opened in 1940 and recently underwent a renovation project.  The details of which I don't have other than an article I have a copy of from the Triad Golf Today Magazine.
Chris or Dunlop:
I would like access to information you have regarding the design or upgrade of Reynolds Park.  Did the design of Winston Lakes take place at the same time and by the same designer.
I had heard Reynolds Park was an Ellis Maples design.
Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2002, 09:53:45 AM »
I would be interested in obtaining any information regarding the original design of Reynolds Park and any recent upgrade information.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2002, 01:17:42 PM »
Lynn,

Check your e-mail.  Dunlop may have some information as well.  He was extremely helpful on Old Town.  I'm not focusing on Reynolds Park in my research, but I want to try and get anything that is readily available.  With what I have received on Old Town in the last few days, I think Reynolds can understandably take a back seat.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2002, 08:05:47 PM »
Scott:

Tanglewood adopted the names "Championship" and "Reynolds" courses to distinguish the two sometime after the PGA, but I don't recall exactly when. Originally, however, the two courses at Tanglewood were designated as "West" and "East".

Reynolds Park:

Reynolds Park is another public golf facility here in Winston-Salem. It was also designed by Perry Maxwell in 1940. RJ Reynolds, Jr. (Dick), brother of Mary Reynolds Babcock who owned the land where Old Town Club is situated, donated this land to the city to build a golf course. Apparently, he commissioned Perry Maxwell for the design, because he was very familiar with both the architect and his work done the year before(1939) at Old Town Club.

In approximately 1967 and 1968, Ellis Maples renovated the entire course. Supposedly, Maples leveled some crowned fairways, particularly the landing area on Hole 18. He re-routed some holes, and re-did the greens. Supposedly, the greens at Holes 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8 are the most drastically different. E.Maple's bunkers were, however, in keeping with the originals.
Evidently, Reynolds Park today is leased through an outfit in California who hired Ed Easley of the "Fream" group to renovate the bunkers again a couple of years ago. They added many bunkers and covered up bunkers throughout the course. I know little else about Reynolds Park!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2002, 09:31:48 PM »
Forsyth CC

Will Reynolds (see Tanglewood) donated a portion of the land where Forsyth CC is situated today. I believe it was originally affiliated with the Twin City Club, a downtown club in Winston-Salem, and the 9 hole golfing grounds were where Forsyth CC is now located. It was designed by Donald Ross (1923). Tillinghast was originally involved with the 9 hole design in 1912 according to a newspaper. Noone knows the details of his involvement.

Apparently, in the early 1950's, a couple of gentlemen by the names of "Floyd" and "Ricibonni" ?, who I have been told were not actually architects per se, but instead were seed salesmen who had some architectural experience, were hired to renovate the course. During the process, they apparently went bankrupt and left the job unfinished, so L. A. Reynolds, Inc., who basically built roads, was hired to complete the job. Notably, many bunkers were covered-up and abandoned, particularly numerous of Ross' carry-bunkers and cross-bunkers located merely some 120 yards from the tees and some 50 yards short of the greens . The 1939 aerial photo as shown below exposes a heavily bunkered back nine.



 A rough count reveals that 23 of these fairway bunkers have been covered-up as they do not exist today. And this is visible on the back 9 alone! Another rough count reveals that 11 greenside bunkers have been added sometime since this aerial was taken. Again, on the back 9 alone.

The course, including the greens and bunkers, have since been completely remodeled by Dan Maples.(1990?) The bunkers all have tremendous flashes today. Modern looking mounds have also been constructed throughout. Trees are also a problem, and their maintenance practice of growing rough in close proximity of the green should be reviewed.

The course and the club are as nice as you will find, it is enjoyable to play and always in fine condition; however, it simply has little resemblence to a Ross design.


Roaring Gap Club

Originally, Hugh G. Chatham founded the Roaring Gap Summer Resort Company in 1894. In 1925, Hugh Chatham, James Hanes, James Gray, Robert Hanes and Ralph Hanes sought the assistance of Leonard Tufts, the son of James Tufts, the founder of Pinehurst, of course, to start a mountain development. Roaring Gap, Inc. was formed and Tufts was elected the first president. Immediately, contracts were approved to build a hotel and golf course. Because of the "Pinehurst connection", Tufts brought in Donald Ross, who was still the professional at Pinehurst, to be the architect. Naturally, Ross was present during the construction of Roaring Gap.

Will Reynolds and R.J. Reynolds were members/stockholders but they did not found Roaring Gap.

This Donald Ross course has never been "touched" in any way by another architect. All the alterations have naturally evolved or have been implemented by well-to-do green's chairmen. A change in maintenance practices and mass-scale tree removal plans could instantly restore its original character. For an extremely detailed discussion on Roaring Gap and restoration measures in general, visit the following link:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionwhite3.html

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2002, 04:15:57 AM »
Dunlop,

I can discuss this on the phone sometime, but the information I have about Reynolds indicates that Maxwell didn't put any bunkers in the original design and that Maples put them all in during his redesign of the course.

If you know otherwise that's great.  But that's what I've got in front of me.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2002, 08:52:03 AM »
In the contrary! I counted 23 bunkers on Maxwell's original design at Reynolds Park.

Please note, however, that all 23 of these original bunkers were greenside bunkers. Evidently, Maxwell did not incorporate any fairway bunkers at Reynolds Park. Interestingly, if I can make a highly generalized statement, I understand that Maxwell did not tend to utilize a great deal of fairway bunkering in his works, especially when compared to Ross and modern architects, such as RT Jones. Thus, Reynolds Park may reveal to be very consistent. E. Maples, therefore, added modest fairway bunkering at Reynolds Park during his renovation.

On the other hand, Maxwell incorporated 18 fairway bunkers  at Old Town Club, as shown on the 1940 aerial. These fairway bunkers are intriguing in that they were not positioned to squeeze landing areas and such as we are accustomed today. These fairway bunkers were primarily 100 yards or so from the tee and 75 yards or so short of the greens, both hardly in play. Perhaps they were used more for the visual effect - by assisting the golfer with aim, direction, and/or shot-shaping choices.
Three of these 18 fairway bunkers help define merging fairways between Holes 8 and 17 and between Holes 13 and 14.

Dunlop


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2002, 11:07:29 AM »
For those interested, tonight the Golf Channel is showing highlights of the 1974 PGA Championship from Tanglewood.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2002, 11:14:35 PM »
Old Town Club's "restored" greens

Earlier in the thread Tom Paul called for a case study of Old Town's new greens. Attached is a current photograph of Hole 5 to assist in this effort.



As shown, this green slopes severely from left to right with undulations throughout. Although Cupp "softened" our greens, they are still very interesting as you can observe. And they do "flow"!! Some attention has been given to the fact that I said that the new greens don't seem to "flow" quite like the original Maxwell greens. Let me qualify the statement by explaining further.

Tom, we discussed "greens within greens" last week. There were, in fact, greens within our original Maxwell greens, but they "flowed" in such a way that they were not readily visible or obvious. Instead, they were a learned response from playing the course many times.

In contrast, we still have "greens within our greens"; however, they presently "flow" in such a way that they are more readily visible. You can certainly look at the photograph and determine the greens within the green above?

Moreover, our original Maxwell greens "flowed" in such a way that short putts broke a lot more in one direction or another than they do now. A 5-foot putt on our original greens would/could break between 18" to 24". It didn't really matter where the pin was located. Today our greens "flow" in such a way that a 5 foot putt simply doesn't break as much, usually between 6" to 8" tops. While long putts on our new greens continue to break tremendously like before, the short putts are simply more level than before. Cupp did not necessarily "plateau "our greens, but more accurately, he melded together pinnable areas within our originals. I believe it is the creation of these pinnable areas which distinguishes the "flow".

Any comments?

Dunlop

 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2002, 04:11:33 AM »
Great job Dunlop.

But for some reason the photo doesn't show up.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2002, 05:36:52 AM »
Dunlop:

I hope we can get into the details of the greens of Old Town before and after! I think it would make a great case study for contributors to this site who are interested in some of the finer point of architecture and how those finer points may pan out into actual playability.

I'm not too certain I'm understanding how Cupp "melded" together former "pinnable" Maxwell areas but now the Cupp greens are MORE noticeable as "greens within a green". I would think if he "melded" them that they would be less noticeable not more so! Conversely I would think that Maxwell's old "unmelded" pinnable areas would be more noticeable as "greens within a green".

But I very much like what you said that the old Maxwell "greens within a green" took some real experience to putt properly. To me nuances such as you describe there are what make really great greens just that!

But the overall question which should probably be answered first is why did the club feel the need to do anything to Maxwell's original greens?

Was it because they were "soggy" as you said earlier or was it the club's desire to increase the speed of the greens by using one of these new "high speed" or "super" grasses like an A or G variety!

If the problem was simply "sogginess" it seems there may have been other remedial methods that should have been explored and considered first short of recontouring and "softening" Maxwell's original greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2002, 07:53:09 AM »
Dunlop,
    As I explained in my email, the reason your pictures are not showing up here is that they do not reside on a publicly accessible web site.  You are trying to post these from your PC desktop: file:///C:/MyDocuments/OldTownClubGolfFiles/ClousterBook/Hole5.jpg ,
 which won't work.  Do you have a personal web site?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2002, 10:08:14 PM »
Tom Paul,

My final attempt describing the difference in green contours! Photographs before and after would assist this effort; however, I presently do not have any good photos of before.
Plus, I cannot post photos until I get a personal domain. Thanks for your patience!

The original greens were so severely contoured that there were NOT many pinnable positions. The greens just randomly undulated all over the place. Therefore, as I described above, the "greens within the green" were not particularly noticeable, visible, or obvious in such a wave of commotion. The "greens within the green" were instead a learned response through playing experience.

On the other hand, because our green contours were "softened", there are many more pinnable locations today. For example, if the lower levels on a green-grid (the swales) were raised toward the "medium", then that location will in fact have a larger puttable surface area. If they are larger in puttable surface areas, then these "greens within a green" will naturally be more noticeable or visible. Similarly, if the higher level points on a green-grid (the humps) were shaved toward the "medium", then that location will too have a larger puttable surface area. The larger the puttable surface area within the contours, the more visible, noticeable, and obvious the "green within the green".

If you take a 3D picture of our old greens, you would likely see many sharp "concave" and "convex" shapes. If you raise the vertices of the concave angles and lower the vertices of the convex angles, the vertices themselves, both at the top and the bottom, would become wider and more level. I hate to use this word, but this process has the effect of creating "plateau-like" areas. Some of our greens, particularly at Holes 1,5,14, 16 and 18 contain these areas due to their "softening" The picture of Hole 5 hopefully will be posted soon. It is these wider more level areas, the greens within the green, which presently catch my eye.

The contours do continue to "meld", but they are more subdued. It is my understanding that greens can be simulated through computerized "terrain model mapping" utilizing Auto CAD, Sokkia Data Collectors, etc. Apparently, Ed Connor and Robert Sheridan have done many similar green replications, since one or the other was involved at Brookhollow CC and Riviera with Coore and Crenshaw. I will inquire as to whether they were used at Old Town? Coore therefore knows terrain modeling first hand, which justified his comment to me about it being an inexact procedure at best.

So why did we "restore/renovate" our greens? At the time I was not close to the decision process so I really do not know first hand. I seriously doubt that the temptation of increased green speeds was the goal. Instead, it was likely the consequence. I will elaborate on the agronomic conditions.

As I stated before, our greens were constantly soft and spongy. Frequently, balls would plug into the greens. When I spoke to Pat O'Brien, head of the Southeast section of the USGA who assists clubs with turfgrass issues, he explained to me that we had serious sub-surface problems. Because our sub-surface, like many other classic designs which were "push-ups" and were not built to modern USGA requirements, consisted of clay and silt primarily, internal drainage was sacrificed. The percolation rate was less than one inch per hour. Thus, when it rained, the greens would be moist and damp for a long time. If it were not for the surface drainage due to our severe green contours, we would have had virtually no drainage at all. Because of these wet conditions, our Penncross Bentgrass had serious root problems.
Because Old Town had little control over soil moisture in its greens, we could not prevent foreign grasses, such as poa annua and commonbermuda, from encroaching and taking over. These foreign grasses simply thrive in damp conditions. Thus, O'Brien recommended that we consult an architect with the prospect of reconstructing our greens with a sand based fill pad to USGA specs. This would allow for proper sub-surface drainage. and plant a newer grass which in turn would have a healthier root system and would be more competitively dominant over the foreign grasses.

Old Town basically had three alternatives:

1. Fumigation and Re-seeding- supposedly this was not a prudent option because of the likelihood that the Bermuda/poa annua would return due to the sub-surface drainage issues.

2. Aerify and Top-dress Continuously: this is also unlikely to improve conditions as soil ingredients will likely change very little over time, compounded by the fact that the internal content would only change, if any, 6 inches deep. Ideally, the content needed to be altered 18 inches below the surface.

3.Reconstruct Greens to USGA specs.: this would allow for sub-surface drainage, new grass with healthier root systems, firmer conditions, and no foreign grasses encroaching while not necessarily sacrificing originality in contour due to terrain simulation/laser topography. Plus, restoring their sizes was a prominent consideration as well.

Once again, I believe selecting the third option was a reasonable decision. However, the contours before were so unique, that altering them might have been the last option for me. I'm a minority though.


Chris,

I almost forgot! Brad Klein visited Old Town Club a few months ago for the first time. Although he did not play the course, we did a ride-through. He could also lend his perspective on the greens for your book.

Dunlop

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2002, 07:13:20 AM »
Below is a current photo of Hole 5. As shown, the green slopes severely from left to right with undulations throughout. Although this green has been "softened", I believe you can readily see the different greens within this green. And they do flow and meld together nicely. Any comments!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2002, 07:17:23 AM »
Yikes!  That looks like one tough green!  What are the green speeds like? Hopefully not unmanageable.

I see you got your web site up and running!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

golfarc

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2002, 07:27:11 AM »

There seems to be a concensus that Starmount Forest was designed by Maxwell.  Has anyone verified this.  There is some evidence that it was not.  There is strong feeling that it was originally done by Stiles and Van Cleek.  Just thought I would let ya'll know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2002, 07:45:15 AM »
Dunlop;

I suppose my questions would be two. First, how was the green softened? In other words was the low side brought up, the high side taken down or a combination of both--or maybe even something in the interiors of some of the green spaces? I think you did say earlier that in most cases the original lower fronts were raised to accomplish softening (less of a fall in the high/low elevation change on the greens). But how about the green in the photo? Was the low side brought up and the rest left alone?

The second question is are we talking about the same thing with the phrase "greens within a green"? With that concept at some of the greens at NGLA, for instance, and with the speeds they have, the playability of the true "greens within a green" concept is if you happen to be in the wrong section (wrong "green" within the overall green) you are not likely to two putt to another section "green" from that wrong spot. In some cases NGLA may have greens that have up to 3-4 of these separate sections and if you happen to find your ball in the wrong one you will not likely two putt--and actually it can get even worse than that!! You need to understand that at the very least you need to get your first putt into the correct section "green" to two putt from there!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2002, 04:21:29 PM »
Great stuff, and if Bill Coore loves the place then I'm all into it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2002, 06:35:03 PM »
When I arrived to play Old Town last October, one of the first things I learned from the guys in the pro shop was that Bob Cupp had made some changes to the course, including the greens, a few years ago. My immediate reaction was something along the lines of, “How could you possibly hire Bob Cupp, of all people, to tinker on a Maxwell course?”. Of course, I am too much of a gentleman to ask that question out loud.  I just had never thought of Cupp as a guy who has done much work on classic courses.  I expected to be disappointed. I was not.  I never saw the course before so I am not sure of all the changes that were made, but regardless of who did what, I like the course as it sits today, especially the greens. You simply can not appreciate the fifth green until you play it. The fifth is a fairly short sharp dogleg left, and I hit a perfect 8 iron that landed just short of the pin. I thought I had made a 2.  The pin was just right and back of center. When I reached the green I was disappointed to see that my ball had rolled about 15 feet past the hole. No two, but I still had visions of a birdie.  I played the putt to break about two feet left. I hit what I thought was a good putt and it would up about 6 feet left of the hole, from where my two became a five. This is a green that Cupp softened. I would not have wanted to play it before.

The course lies very naturally on fairly hilly terrain. I was particularly impressed by the absence of cart paths, although I am sure that most of the older members must ride. The routing is great. Both the first and tenth tees are just outside the pro shop and the 9th and 18th greens are side-by-side.  Frankly, I think Cupp did a pretty good job. I would just like to see a few more trees removed.
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2002, 07:07:59 PM »
Jim:

It's kinda hard to know exactly what Cupp did unless you know what it looked like before he got there. What you might be saying is Cupp did a pretty good job of not screwing up too much what Perry Maxwell did originally.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2002, 07:16:14 PM »
Tom Paul:

We are on exactly the same page with our definition and understanding of the "greens within a green" concept! I knew we were from our phone conversation!

Hole 5 green is one of the greens at Old Town which was softened in part by the heightened front portion of the green; however, it is distinguishable from some of the others in that it has not had a marked effect on playability. Golfers had to fly it to the pin before Cupp as they still do now. Run-ups were never an option on this hole.

A couple of others, such as Hole 1 and Hole 3, the front edges were raised in an attempt to soften the greens, and it is these holes that playabilty from the approaches were affected. Run-ups used to be a viable option! They are not anymore! Cupp did disguise this raised front on Hole 1 by utilizing a false front to blend the additional height into the contours of the approach. Plus, Cupp is very "visual" oriented, so he certainly wanted the front of the green to be seen from the fairway. The false front gives the golfer that vision. Without the false front, the golfer would not be able to see the green surface due to the raised fronts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2002, 07:38:52 PM »
Jim,

Good assessment! I must report however that Mac and O'neil Crouch, our Supers, have been busy this winter removing trees. They are hard at work cutting down strategically improper trees, other trees for agronomic reasons, and still others to open up vistas of the course. Still many more need to be removed, but it is a work in progress. We are certainly off to a good start though.

I know that you were not pleased with the tree beside the trap on Hole 9 when you were rating the course. Hopefully that tree will soon be a priority. When Brad Klein visited, he pointed out many, many more, of course, which he would like to see removed, none of which have been taken down as of yet. Mostly, they were the newly planted 15 foot Silver Maples which were once arbitrarily planted to define holes, typically just outside landing areas or just behind greens. If anyone would listen, these need to go as well.

Again, we are working on it!

Thanks,

Dunlop

I
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Maxwell Smart

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2002, 07:54:35 PM »
Mr. White,

The fifth was one of the most outlandish and bold greens at old town. The modification was pretty good, not much done other than a bit of softening by adding a "kicker to the back of the upper level-if I remember.  Actually.  since it had a terrace and was a bit "easier" to soften than some of the the more complex greens.

  How about showing a picture of Mr. Cupps green on the previous hole, #4 and see what the reaction is?  Also, not to be greedy, but how about pictures of the bunkers on number two or number three??  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2002, 08:40:48 PM »
Check out the evolution of the bunker at Old Town Club!

This photo was taken in 1939, the year Perry Maxwell completed construction. It looks like the work that Jeff Bradley presently does for Coore and Crenshaw. Tom Doak's bunkers look similar as well. They appear "natural"!



Now the photo below was taken in 2002 at Old Town Club from virtually the same angle and position as the above 1939 photo. Just look at the evolution and/or transformation of our bunkers!





Any comments? We may need Tommy Naccarato's bunker expertise on this one!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2002, 03:54:21 AM »
Dunlop
I had seen old photos of Old Town and the course seemed to have some extremely interesting bunkering. I'd always been curious if the course retained that interesting flair - this last picture answers that question. When did they start looking like the bottom photo? Was it a gradual evolution or was there a definite point in the course's history that they made them more regular in outline? They difinitely have the unique Cupp 'flair' today - is there any talk of trying to restablishing some of the Maxwell or original look.

I think Maxwell has suffered from misconceptions about his style - during the Open at Southern Hills I was trying to convey that the bunkering style found currently at SH is not close to the original flair. One of those who had a misconception was Jeff Brauer who had also redesigned his Home (home as in his Home) course of Dornick Hills -  a course that obviously meant a great deal to Maxwell. Jeff said the course was in pretty bad shape and there wasn't much left to try to save -- a shame.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »