At 225 yards, is the seventeenth at Pebble horrible - or merely bad?

[Ran Morrissett]

I think it is horrible. Just like the twelfth at Augusta, it has become a ridiculous hit and hope shot but this is even worse because at 225 yards, the golfer deserves something that approximates a target. Having to land a ball in the rough to brake it to stay on the left portion of the green doesn't count

When the green was much bigger, I imagine it would have played just fine at this length. Given that it is on dead flat land, I even give the architects credit for knocking character into the hole with a unique green configuration, which the professionals can still handle from the ~175 yard set of tees. HOWEVER, now it no longer functions properly for the US Open set of tees and hasn't for decades.

Because two of golf's most famous shots have occurred there, is that why the owners leave it as is? Yuk. Couple it with the dog twelfth... People who talk about Pebble's great finish certainly can't be referring to 15 & 17.

Watching Ernie Els double it from a not bad tee ball was painful and for a par three to average over 3.6 without extreme conditions isn't good golf.

What would you give the seventeenth on the Doak scale? A 3 from the 225 yard set of tees and a 6 from the forward set? Or is that too kind?

Cheers,

[Anthony Gray]

  Way to difficult. With unpredictable wind it could be a disaster from that distance with the left pin placement. What % of golfers hit the green on the first day?

  Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

Ran, do you think it dawns on a single player to play short right from the tee, leaving a simple pitch and putt to secure par?

I disagree. It is one of my favorite holes in golf and I'd give it a 9.

Mike

[Jason Elwell]

According to the stats I saw, 20.5% GIR at 17 on Thursday. Way too hard.

[John Moore II]

In all reality, I don't think its that bad. None of the players hit what I would consider to be the preferred shot into the hole. Actually neither shot that I would prefer. None of the players that I say tried to hit a big, super high fade into the pin and land it on the green; not a hard shot with a hybrid, moderately difficult with a long iron. And they didn't try to hit a low draw, land it either on the ridge or on the front and run it back to the back part of the green. Everyone that I saw tried to bounce the ball into/through the rough short of the green and let it bounce where ever it might go. No one really really tried anything different.

And lets not forget, this is the United States Open and these are the best players in the world, stupidly talented. There is no such thing as too hard when it comes to these guys.

[Steve Salmen]

Tiger was talking about his final round of the 2000 US Open and how his goal was to not make a bogey.  He said on 17, the easiest place to make a 3 was from the front bunker.

It is correct that two of golf's famous shots happend on 17.  However, what happens if Nicklaus's ball does not hit the flag? What happens if Watson hit a perfect shot with the 2 iron? Does it hold the green?  Where do the balls wind up?

I was thinking the same thing yesterday.  It would be a better hole if it were shorter and the green larger so the players could throw the ball up in the air and have a chance at it stopping.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I think it is a joke from that distance to a left pin.  If they are going to put the pin back there they need to move the tees up like they did on 5.  From the back tee they should only be playing to a front right hole location.  The middle of that green might as well not be there as you could stand in one fringe and piss to the other downwind.

[Jason Topp]

Ran:

Are you saying the hole is unfair?

I think it is more of a setup problem than a design problem.  The hole would play better without the long grass that caught Els.  

I have no problem with a green that is very difficult to hit as long as there are interesting recovery opportunities.


Mike:

I cannot tell whether hitting it right is a reasonable option or not.  The slopes look so difficult that I am not sure that pitch and putt (or long putt) from the right is easier than just dumping it in the front bunker.

    

[Jason Topp]

And they didn't try to hit a low draw, land it either on the ridge or on the front and run it back to the back part of the green.

Els tried that shot and was about a foot from perfect and made double.

[Peter Pallotta]

Why can't we just call it a transition hole and happily accept it? Or why can't we call it one unfair hole on an otherwise fair golf course, and feel lucky that it breaks up the monotony?  Or why can't we say that it is a supreme and ingenious test not of skill but of character and judgement (as Bogie suggests) and celebrate that?  I know, I know - the green has gotten smaller and the tee has been moved back, and so that's all we see....

Franklin Pangborn - Architecturalist

[John Moore II]

And they didn't try to hit a low draw, land it either on the ridge or on the front and run it back to the back part of the green.

Els tried that shot and was about a foot from perfect and made double.

Oh well. Like I said, these are the best, lets expect them to pull off a near perfect shot in order to get a good result.

[Adam Clayman]

These poor pros are just asked to do too much with the golf ball.  Boo Hoo!

As for laying up. The sand is probably the best spot. A chip using the length of the green is not easy to figure due to the convergence of the different slopes.

[Garland Bayley]

Inventive guys from the Pacific Northwest think the best way to play it is to try and bank one off of someone on the 18th tee.
With that kind of strategy available it must be a strategic gem.

[C. Squier]

The hole is plain awful from 220 to that pin.  There is no slinging a hook up the slope from there, the greens are too firm and the balls will simply run through into the long stuff and leave a worse shot than leaving it short in the tall grass.  I don't think high fades would hold either.  That said, from what I saw, that was the only marginal decision made in the course setup on Thursday.

[Wade Whitehead]

The hole requires a perfectly struck shot.

Is contention based, in part, on the "par 3" part of the discussion?  I like half par and 17 provides that.  Laying up, then getting up and down, is well within reach, and would actually make it play closer to a par 3 for the pros that going for it with 4 irons and such.

WW

[Mike Hendren]

It is the professional players' supreme skill that renders the hole problematic for them.  They are their own worst enemies. They simply can't fathom that there is a pin location that they can't access.   The modest fairway begs to be utilized in conjunction with a left-hand pin.  

While the 16th green at Cypress Point Club is far more generous, there is some similarity between the holes.  Given a howling wind, in a pressure packed stroke play competition, even the professional player must seriously consider laying up at Cypress Point to insure no more than a 4 while likely getting up and down, say, 2 out of 3 times to make par.   The players simply aren't smart enough to recognize the same strategy at Pebble Beach, likely due to their affinity for sand saves.  

We all rave about half-par holes.  If my math is correct, a 3.6 average is pretty damned close.  

While we're at it I enjoy watching the best players in the world fail to hit the green from 140 yards out at the 11th as well, though the fairway should not have been moved to the right as that changes a stratetic hole to a penal one.  

Mike

[Anthony Gray]

According to the stats I saw, 20.5% GIR at 17 on Thursday. Way too hard.

  One out of five...and these guys are pros.....too hard.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

We had a 300 yard par 3 at Oakmont. What was the GIR percent there?

[Anthony Gray]

  When the bunker is the best place for your tee ball THERE IS an architectural problem. Move the tee up or expand the green.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

Tim Clark must've hit a fade...

Look - to paraphrase what they used to say about Nicklaus: "Ran knows he's smarter than me; I know Ran's smarter than me; and Ran knows that I know that he's smarter than me"....but I think he's wrong on this one.  The holes doesn't HAVE to 'function' in any pre-prescribed way, does it?  If it was 1916 and everyone talked about what the 'bogie score' was on that hole, would it be just fine?

Franklin

[Phil McDade]

Bogey:

I think you're right on with your analysis. Yes, Els' shot was probably a yard or less from being ideal -- but he chose a shot in which he was flirting with considerable danger if he'd missed it, which he did. He doubled the hole because he failed to safely hack his way out of the high fescue -- accepting bogey in the process -- and instead seemed to hurry the shot and tried to get it close to the pin. A hard lesson, and a tough score of 5 on what originated as a very well executed shot. But that, in my mind, is how the US Open ought to operate -- tempting, but very penal with less-than-thoughtful execution.

Where's Billy Casper when we need him?

[Mike Hendren]

Heck, if I can make a 4 there, why can't these guys make a 3?

Bogey

[Jerry Kluger]

I think an easy comparison in a major championship is the 16th hole at ANGC.  The player is challenged to make a great recovery shot or a great putt if he is makes a poor shot or even one which is too conservative.  When a player decides that his best target on a par 3 is a bunker then I think that there is something wrong.  

[John Moore II]

According to the stats I saw, 20.5% GIR at 17 on Thursday. Way too hard.

  One out of five...and these guys are pros.....too hard.

  Anthony

Nope, just fine. Give them a back buster every now and then. All the opinions will change if the USGA gets the idea to move the tees up about 20 yards and puts the pin from right. Who cares what the percentages are or anything else. Give these guys some ass kicker holes and make them play golf. I wouldn't care if all the holes were this hard. Let them play the same way many of us play on a daily basis.

[Mike Hendren]

Last I checked, hitting the green in regulation was not the object of the game.

Bogey