[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Help me out -- as long as the bounces / hops are consistently there -- then it's OK.

OK -- I get it now.

[Bradley Anderson]

I can't tell from the television, but yesterday it looked like there are two distinct varieties of grass on the greens - one with fairly deep roots, and another with very shallow roots. The shallow rooted grass was wilted to the point where there was not sufficient water in the leaves to stay turgid enough to support a smooth ball roll, whereas the deeper rooted grass was  still turgid enough to support a fairly smooth ball roll. So when the ball moved from dehyrdated leaves to hydrated leaves it behaved erratic.

If that's what is happening I would point out to the tournament director that they are PUTTING greens. Its well and fine to dry them out to where they will reject anything but a high trajectory shot (although I don't know how that showcases anyones ground game skills) but when you do that to the point where they don't roll anymore, clearly you are favoring one dimension of the game in favor of the other. You are making them TARGET greens. I know that a putting green is for putting and approaching, but the putting part is pretty darn important.

The winner could be end up being a guy with a great approach game, and average putting skills. But it should be the guy who has all the skills.

[Ian Larson]

Ian:

Help me out -- as long as the bounces / hops are consistently there -- then it's OK.

OK -- I get it now.

Matt,

not sure if that was sarcasm....and this may sound stupid. But yeah, consistent "inconsistency" is fair. At least in my book. And my experience working with the USGA guys at tournaments is that it's all about consitency. Nothing more nothing less. If they are consistently dead, at least it's consistent. And it's fair for the entire playing field. Dead, thin, lush..,,the super nor the USGA care. I would be disappointed to see a US Open without greens near death.

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Are you serious ?

Do we really need greens that are near dead to be the benchmark of skill with the flatstick. How many more debacles must we revisit with such a perverse approach? Wasn't the 18th at Olympic enough? The 18th at SH in '01 and at Shinny in '04 ?

Ian, if you are "disappointed" with such a situation then you need to re-examine just what it is that is being tested.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

most greens at the end of a major are very close to being dead. When it comes to keeping poa greens I think you will find that Ian Larson is one of the best. Please don't compound ignorance with arrogance.

Jon

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

Wait a second ... this site is based upon serious questions and answers. I respect Ian's background but he doesn't get a free pass when he says he would be "disappointed" to see a US Open with greens that were not at "near death." That is what got things started in the first place with the various sites / hole locations I just mentioned.

Excuse me -- there is no "ignorance" on my part -- just flat our disagreement and my examples prove that. The arrogance you mentioned is also not present. I prefer to see real golf determined through skill not the silly inclusion of consistent bounes and hops - maybe we can add a miniature ferris wheel and clown's mouth too.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

That greens at the end of a major event such as the US Open are nearly dieing is a result of the requirements and stipulations that the organisers require. That you do not understand this shows ignorance (ignorance is not meant as being negative you cannot know it all) Ian clearly stated he has worked with the USGA, knows what it requires and I can assure you his knowledge is very in depth with poa greens which we are discussing here. I take his comment that he would expect the greens to be "near death" as showing that the requirements and stipulations were being implimented.

If there is no ignorance on your part then what real world solution is there to the green's situation at PB that does not include reducing the amount of play (the owners will not accept that) , altering the character of the course (that would be tragic) or leaving PB out (which will not happen).

You say you have given examples as to how the situation with the greens could be improved but where? If you can not do that then there is your arrogance.

Jon

[John Moore II]

You know, not to get off subject, but has anyone noticed that Davis Love -5 through 10 holes? Thats fairly sporty if he can keep it going.

[Ian Larson]

Matt,

most greens at the end of a major are very close to being dead. When it comes to keeping poa greens I think you will find that Ian Larson is one of the best. Please don't compound ignorance with arrogance.

Jon

thank you but far far from it..

[Ian Larson]

Jon:

Wait a second ... this site is based upon serious questions and answers. I respect Ian's background but he doesn't get a free pass when he says he would be "disappointed" to see a US Open with greens that were not at "near death." That is what got things started in the first place with the various sites / hole locations I just mentioned.

Excuse me -- there is no "ignorance" on my part -- just flat our disagreement and my examples prove that. The arrogance you mentioned is also not present. I prefer to see real golf determined through skill not the silly inclusion of consistent bounes and hops - maybe we can add a miniature ferris wheel and clown's mouth too.

Matt,

You're right I don't get a free pass. But there is nothing scientific behind that. It's merely my opinion for what it's worth which is not much I know. Maybe I could rephrase that.....

I would be disappointed if the greens in our national championship were overwatered all in an attempt to prevent any wilt. I love wilt. I don't put a drop of water on a green until I see wilt. And when I do it's a mist at a frequent rate.

The US Open is our flagship tournament. I don't see anything wrong with taking the greens to the edge and back for the event. As long as it's consistent. Do I think that where golf in general should be? Absolutely not.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

most greens at the end of a major are very close to being dead. When it comes to keeping poa greens I think you will find that Ian Larson is one of the best. Please don't compound ignorance with arrogance.

Jon

thank you but far far from it..

My point Ian is that if you were to follow the maintenance plan that is used for the US Open week the green would suffer and loss of the sward would be a real possability. This is only my opinion but would you do that to your greens all season? Or are you talking about knowledge of poa?

Jon

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

Breaking News

The greens on 4,5 & 6 are puttable

 

Jon

[Pete_Pittock]

terrible, terrible greens

[Matt_Ward]

Peter:

Love the comment ! 

Ian:

I am not suggesting that the greens at a US Open be watered to the level of a member guest event. But common sense should always prevail. If anything what has been seen in the past is how the USGA has gotten burned -- BIG TIME in numerous instances. Was it really necessary ? No -- not in my mind.

Ian, the USGA has often overshot the mark for the sake of defending par. There was nothing wrong when Johnny Miller shot 63 at Oakmont in the final round in '73. The USGA then went on attack mode with their inane set-up of WF/W. What's amusing is that a car accidentally drover over the 1st green during one of the rounds and not a mark was made. Pushing the envelope is one thing -- but going over it to demonstrate some par logic defense is wrong and as a result the meaning of being a US Open champion takes a hit because of that.

Jon:

Let me help you out -- OK.

There's no need to try to speed up greens and then because of that action have the bumps and hops you see. Nothing wrong with having them a bit slower and more consistent.

Jon, I didn't dispute Ian's expertise -- just his thoughts that anything less than a near death experience would be "disappointing." I see the near death experience is disappointing because so little has been learned from past bonehead errors -- check out Olympic in '98, Southern Hills in '01 and Shinnecock in '04.

The US Open should be won because of skill -- not because you hit the clown's mouth and it bounced off the ferris wheel and went in the hole.

[Garland Bayley]

Wow, the luck has changed and even Tiger is sinking putts. As Ben Hogan said, the more I practice, the luckier I get.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon:

Let me help you out -- OK.

There's no need to try to speed up greens and then because of that action have the bumps and hops you see. Nothing wrong with having them a bit slower and more consistent.

I whole heartedly agree with you. There is no reason to speed up the greens as they do. However as far as I am aware, the greens been cut so short is a result of the requirements/stipulations for a minimum green preformance as laid down by the USGA. It is interesting that you do not answer questions that you know have an answer that goes against you view point.

Matt,

to go back to the original topic. It is great to see Tiger firing on all four again. After the 3rd round did he make any negative comments on the greens? He must have as they are the same greens as he played on on thursday. I hope he finds the ability to be a gracious in defeat as he is in victory.

Jon

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

Tiger has his work cut out today in chasing someone like Dustin Johnson.

People have been saying when is th eyouth brigade going to come forward -- today's final round -- bumps and bruises to the greens  notwithstanding -- we shall see today.

[Sean Leary]

The greens did seem better in the 3rd round. Less players probably was the reason.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon:

Let me help you out -- OK.

There's no need to try to speed up greens and then because of that action have the bumps and hops you see. Nothing wrong with having them a bit slower and more consistent.

I whole heartedly agree with you. There is no reason to speed up the greens as they do. However as far as I am aware, the greens been cut so short is a result of the requirements/stipulations for a minimum green preformance as laid down by the USGA. It is interesting that you do not answer questions that you know have an answer that goes against you view point.

Matt,

to go back to the original topic. It is great to see Tiger firing on all four again. After the 3rd round did he make any negative comments on the greens? He must have as they are the same greens as he played on on thursday. I hope he finds the ability to be a gracious in defeat as he is in victory.

Jon

Jon:

Tiger has his work cut out today in chasing someone like Dustin Johnson.

People have been saying when is th eyouth brigade going to come forward -- today's final round -- bumps and bruises to the greens  notwithstanding -- we shall see today.

Yes Matt, he certainly does but I know he is good enough to do it. Maybe this is the start of rehabilitation of Tiger the 'PLAYER'. I hope it is. The rehabilitation of Tiger the 'GOLFER' will take much longer but lets hope.

Jon

[archie_struthers]

 

Kinda like saying that the bunkers at Pine Valley suck because you can get a really bad lie in a footprint .....that's the breaks ....the greens at Pebble are most likely reminiscent of the old tour courses before they really started mowing them low ...lots of bumps and skids in the days ....that's why many of the old tour players used a putter with loft

just play golf .....everybody has to play the same course...if anyone could figure out how to putt "bad" greeens you would think it was Tiger....he really stuck his foot in his mouth on this one, particularly now that he made everytihing he looked at Saturday

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting that many attack Tiger and defend the greens at Pebble.

I thought it a long standing given that the green surfaces at Pebble were less than smooth or consistent. 

[Anthony Gray]

Interesting that many attack Tiger and defend the greens at Pebble.

I thought it a long standing given that the green surfaces at Pebble were less than smooth or consistent. 

  I think it's common knowlege. Listen to the commentaters in the late afternoon.

  Anthony

[Jud_T]

This is why Tiger and others skip tha AT+T every year.  The greens are what they are.  In the quest for the holy grail of par the USGA has misfired here.  Either don't play our national championship at this venue or let 'em run at 9 or 10 and let's see what these guys can do.

[Jon Wiggett]

Interesting that many attack Tiger and defend the greens at Pebble.

I thought it a long standing given that the green surfaces at Pebble were less than smooth or consistent. 

Greg,

I don't think people are particularly defending the greens. They do not provide a perfect rolling surface in the afterneen. I think it is more the fact that Tiger was moaning after he played badly which sounds a bit like sour grapes to many. It might be a bit of a chicken and egg situation but in his hey day Tiger did not have many poor rounds and he rarely ridiculed a course to provide an excuse for said play. Now each bad round he has sees tantrums on the course and a rant in the press conference.

Jon

[Terry Lavin]

With four days nearly done, I think the jury would vote in favor of Mr. Woods on this question.  These greens are not major-worthy surfaces this week.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()