[Ian Larson]

Tom,

Of all the tournaments I've been involved with, especially championships, the greens got beat to hell. I've never once seen a championship where the greens weren't pushed to their bloody death. The last tourney I did was Torrey. Pretty similar to Pebbles situation. The in-house management wasn't as high end as I've seen at other courses and tourneys but the USGA was their to lead and did a damn good job as always keeping conditions consitent from green to green. The difference at Pebble is that the in-house management is pretty damn high end. These guys know how to manage on the edge on their own unlike Torrey. The USGA is their still leading the prep as far as consistency goes, but because Pebble has a high end team they have been probably weaning these greens off of water for last couple weeks. Hence the reason they look so stressed for Round 1. When I got to Torrey the Sunday before, I looked at the greens and saw the in-houses water management and thought to myself "these greens are about to host the championship?"

As far as bentgrass, I've also done The Memorial. And those greens were also pushed to the brink as Latshaw does year after year. But even with pure bentgrass like at Muirfield....by the end of the day the mowers are collecting some clippings. Little but some. Just enough to make the greens a little bumpy for the afternoon groups. And by the end of the week? Forget about it, they're toast and the crew can't start soon enough rehabilitating them. So I've seen no difference between poa and bentgrass greens as far as tourney prep and consistency go. They both get bumpy and they both get. The crap beat out of them by Sunday. I honestly can't speak about Bermuda greens in tourney prep. But in this case grass is grass.

The only thing I will say about poa is that come tourney time and the staff had missed it's mark with seedhead suppression apps, and the greens are loaded with seedhead. That will be the only thing that makes poa worse and less consistent. But in my experience, every poa course that has hosted a tourney has had seedhead suppression under control and was a non-issue.

[Phil McDade]

Good gawd, screw the greens, USGA needs to fix the pace of play!!!

8:36 AM starting time and Tiger's group is waiting on every shot from hole 2 on. Pathetic!!!

Richard:

Part of the problem is that this is an Open, and thus Open qualifiers -- who basically had a hot round or two sometime in the past four months -- play intermingled with the big guns. Look at the pairing sheet, and only a few groups ahead of Tiger's group were a bunch of threesomes full of guys who are -- by any definition -- unlikely to win the tournament, and likely to struggle mightily on this course in particular. I suppose one solution might be to have each threesome consist of a Tiger (great golfer), a Hunter Mahan (solid tour guy), and Russell Henley (amateur qualifier), but the USGA doesn't ever do that. They put together the stars in one group (like the Tiger-Els-Westwood group), the mid-range guys in another, and the non-contenders in a third grouping, and they tend to send off the third set of guys all right in a row in the middle of the round.

[Jon Wiggett]

One of the key things in been able to put together a good round is the ability to overcome adversity. Matt, all I am saying is that in the past Tiger might have made a comment about missing several putts and that the greens didn't help. Now he blames the greens and that difference in attitude is maybe why he is less dominant. I had hoped it might have been Tiger 'Phoenix' Woods resurrecting himself from the ashes to dazzle us all again. He just comes across now as whinging when things don't go right for him.

He is still capable of playing very good golf but he is just a shadow of his former self as a golfer.

I agree with you that it would be nice to have the greens a lot better in the afternoon than they are but the truth is that PB is never going to alter its policy and the US Open goes there because of the course not hte conditioning.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Last point -- you throw forward a multiple choice quiz show.

Okay, Matt, you are not good at multiple choice.  So, let's move on to the essay part of the test:

What would you do to make the greens at Pebble Beach more suitable for championship play?


You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.

[Michael Dugger]

So the USGA spent how much money adding bunkers to holes like #6 and making other tweaks in preparation for the tournament???

I'd be curious to know that figure...

Considering they hold the U.S. Open at Pebble every decade, is it that unreasonable to work over the greens in preparation for the U.S. Open?

The poa will inevitably return, but can't they keep it at bay for the tourney? 

[Bruce Katona]

the greens are, for the most part, the same for all (yes AM tee times have an advantage over PM, but it evens out).  Rub of the green will come into play at PB as it does at any of The Open Championships.

What about the scores posted to date?  

The USGA must be thrilled par is being defended again with 13 plqyers at PAR or better at 1 PM EDT on Friday.  Any takers for the over/under on winning score (forget who will win) .  I'll make a small wager that anyone in the field will take +2 as a finish on Sunday right now and take their chances on either winning outright or getting into a playoff.

Frankly I much prefer to watch The Open Championship than the US Open.  Viewers enjoy seeing the exciting shots, birdies, driving the green or some of the other exciting shots that can be played on a links course.  

[Anthony Butler]

Matt:

As long as you are going to criticize the maintenance of Pebble Beach and suggest they solve the problem, it would be big of you not to ignore the fact that there IS NO solution.

Or do you have a solution and you just failed to mention it?

Here's what you mentioned:

(a)  small greens - are you suggesting they be doubled in size?
(b)  plenty of traffic - are you suggesting Pebble raise the green fee to $1000 and cut rounds in half?
(c)  Mother Nature related issues - are you suggesting they move indoors?
(d)  "luck" - are you suggesting that the laws of the universe be repealed?
(e)  Poa annua - are you suggesting they CLOSE Pebble Beach one year out of every 7-8 to re-turf all of the greens?

Or are you suggesting they shouldn't play tournaments at Pebble Beach at all, because these conditions are inevitable?

I am surprised at you for not holding Tiger to the same standard as every other pro.  It's his duty to play the course as he finds it.  If he can't do that, perhaps he should skip the 2019 Open and save himself the heartache.

The only possible thing they could do to ameliorate this situation is not cut them so close... the poa would still grow faster than the other grass... it's just the inevitable bumpiness would have less affect on a ball traveling faster across the surface.

Unlikely the USGA is going to offer up greens rolling at 10 for their National Championship though...

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

With all due respect -- I'm not good at turning the issue around to people like me who don't want to see PB be less than what it can be. The issue is the greens themselves. Agreeing with Tiger does not make me "part of the problem."

Since we are talking about a test - rewind the tape and see what I wrote previously -- I never claimed to be an expert on what they need to do -- I can tell you this -- the existing situation never works with the defeatist approach you took which is that there is "no solution." Speaking of a "solution" how is a defeatist attitude helpful?

Tom, with all the $$ and brainpower that PB has -- this is the best they can do? I also have to say the USGA just gets too caught up with score. Let the guys play and let talent -- not luck -- rise to the surface.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Anthony's response, just above yours, was more what I was getting at.

You keep offering nothing here, other than complaint.  I am not a defeatist, I'm a realist.  A problem with no solution is not a problem ... it's a reality.  And reality does NOT prevent talent from rising to the surface ... it just doesn't guarantee a preordained result.

[Steve Kline]

It looked to me like TW made perfect practice putting stroke swings, and then stepped up to  putt and collapsed his wrists just a wee bit.  Just like the rest of us!

As to the poa, I am told that there is a new product coming out that will allow you to spray out poa without hurting the bent. If its as good as some say it is, it would save rebuilding greens like PB's all over the country.

They used it on #2 this spring - or at least a similar product to the one you've heard of. It killed all the poa and the bent has apparently returned within a month quite well. During the time the greens were quite slow while the bent was growing back. One problem I see is that if there is poa all over the course then it will be back in the greens in a matter of time.

[Jon Wiggett]

Maybe they should roll every green between every group then they would be super fast and smooth for the last group, oh and probably dead by the end of the week but hey ho

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Your own words -- there is "no solution." You say that's realism -- really. That's throwing in the towel.

I never claimed to be an expert -- but I know that the greens issue has not been handled well by all of the top tier folks who have been engaged to date. PB has the $$ and can enlist the services of anyone they desire.

Fine Tom -- I agree with Anthony -- don't lower the cuts and be sure to give the greens a bit of water to keep them from going the route we saw previously with such fine efforts like at Shinnecock in '04. By the way what's your solution -- just tell the guys to suck it up and provide the usual bromide about the course plays the same for everyone else.

The USGA and PB will not abandon one another -- they both benefit from one another. It's just a shame the putting surfaces cannot be better.

[George Pazin]

I'm starting to hope they never change them. It has to be the ultimate irony on this site that Matt "Suck it up, pardner, no excuses,  know your lmitations" Ward wants to see more fairness.

[PThomas]

if they were to close the course and redo the greens properly, how long would the course have to be closed for?

[Sean_A]

What a ridulous thread.  It doesn't make an ounce of difference what shape the greens are in, if the condition is a reality or shoddy green keeping.  The only thing that matters is golfers have to deal with the conditions as best thye can.  So far as I know nobody promised US Open qualifiers a course that was in the condition of another course with totsally different grass and in a toatally different climate.  Tiger can complain about the conditions of the greens.  It does about as much good as me complaining about traffic.  I reckon the solution for both problems is the same - less folks using the product. I'll be big about it and volunteer not tp pay $500 for a gander at Pebble.  Who is gonna volunteer to keep off the roads?

Ciao

[jim_lewis]

It seems to me that Pebble Beach has gotten a pass on their greens long enough. I rarely agree with Tiger, but I think its time for someone to have the balls to say what most of the players probably think. For me, the course does not deserve its high ranking because of the greens. Most any other course would get hammered in the rankings with greens of such quality. There are a few courses (and architects) that few dare to critcize. Pebble is one. I am happy to side with Tiger just this once.

[Peter Pallotta]

That's right Mr. Arble.

Interesting to me just in the on-going 'story' that is the Woods-Mickleson 'journey'.  In chapter 13, both play badly, but while TW complains about the greens, Philly Mick praises the set-up and Mike Davis by name and blames his own horrific putting for his score. The writer goes on to speculate (for the sixth time) that TW is the Nicklaus of his era while Phil is Palmer, the former never blaming himself for a poor result, the latter a gracious man of the people.  Later, the writer will re-iterate that regualr fans, the lunch-box golfers, admire TW but don't love him, while they identify with the gambling, heart-on-his-sleeve Mickleson. In chapter 14, he will delve into their respective personal journeys, noting with remarkable insight that their public games parallelled their private lives. He'll end that chapter with a little teaser, something about TW trying to find his game -- and himself -- at The Home of Golf. Ohhh, I wonder what will happen then - maybe a 'new start' for our tarnished hero.

Franklin Pangborn

[Ben Sims]

The USGA seems incapable of applying the simple concepts of Risk Management.  There are some courses that thrive on being beastly and brutal.  Oakmont is one of those courses.  Beth Black is another.  I just don't see Pebble as that type of golf course.  But the USGA--in it's wisdom--tries to get a course like Pebble to play to the historical toughness of those other courses.  In doing so--combined with Pebble's own unique argronomic conditions--they have marginalized the golf course itself and possibly the tournament.  In effect, the USGA has tried to "Tiger proof" (man I hate that term) Pebble beach in it's first major showing since 2000, much like Augusta did after Tiger's 1997 dismantling. 

Hmm, a thought.  Maybe that's the problem!  Maybe we should stop calling what Tiger did in those standout performances a "dismantling" of a golf course.  I mean, does his greatness in those two tournaments marginalize the venues in which he played?  No, I don't think so.  In fact, his performance in those two tournaments doesn't nearly marginalize the greatness of those courses as much as the changes done in response to it. 

Hence Tiger has no one to blame but himself.    

[Tim Bert]

I also have to say the USGA just gets too caught up with score. Let the guys play and let talent -- not luck -- rise to the surface.

Why is it that with good players anything they can't do well must be "luck."  I would argue that putting on quick, bumpy, unpredictable greens is a skill - just a slightly different one than what putting normally tests week in and week out.  It's still golf.

I always had more skill at math than at verbal skills on the SAT, but I never chalked up my poor verbal results as luck.  It was something I didn't do as well as others on that test day. 

McDowell seems to have navigated the greens well for two days.  Several of the leaders played in the afternoon conditions yesterday.  Let's just diminish their achievement and call them lucky.  I mean, Tiger has spent so much time practicing golf the past 6 months that anyone who can putt better than him must just be lucky.

There's nothing worse in this sport than highly skilled golfers whining and finger pointing and deflecting blame all over the place.

I think talent is doing just fine this week.

[PGertner]

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.....

The decision is either have the Open at Pebble....or don't.  The greens at PB are always questioned compared to all the other course the prima donnas play, because of the Poa annua present, and the climate they are grown in.  End of story.  There is nothing else they can do to make them as perfect as Paul B's greens at Muirfield Village.  The crew at PB probably spends as much, if not more than any other golf course prepping for a major.  Greens are conditioned to the highest levels of our industry.  As Supers, all we do is work with the environment, and as Tom Doak earlier stated, bentgrass will not proliferate in that climate.  So, Poa is what you get, and it is a Poa similar to late April to mid may of the East....far from perfect. 

Poa is the grass they are putting on.  If it "goes dormant," it is DEAD.  If Poa disappears on my greens in Rhode Island, so does our membership, our play, our revenue, and my paycheck, because the greens are dead and gone.  No one sprays a miracle chemical to eliminate the Poa, because of you kill it, all grass on the greens goes away.  Yes, we spray for seedhead suppression, as I am sure Pebble's greens have been, but it is a huge misnomer that the Poa just goes away.  Chances are, you are putting on Poa on your older golf course and you just don't realize it. 

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[Tom_Doak]

Did anybody take Ryo Ishikawa in the pool?

He probably just thinks the greens are a LOT better than korai greens back home.

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

If the wind picks up at all, I'd be surprised if Ishikawa holds on. He seems to have one ball flight -- hit it as high as possible -- and not sure that will work at a nastier Pebble. Still, it's a good point about navigating the greens well.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim L:

Well said -- you're absolutely right the sacred cow of PB needs to be seen for what it is regarding the putting surfaces.

Ben:

Agree w you -- the beasty brutal desired set-up doesn't work as naturally with PB as it does w Oakmont and Bethpage Black. Why not allow the players to play the course as it was designed.

George:

There's big time difference here -- PB and the US Open set-up decrees don't work well with one another. I don't expect total fairness but just consistency. Oakmont was consistent -- no doubt tough but the set-up allowed for fine play to be rewarded when superior execution happened. I don't see PB doing that thus far.

Sean:

Get real OK -- why have any grass at all and let's just putt on pure dirt or some other surface but smooth grass. Makes perfect sense to me and countless others.

[Tim Bert]

It's a good thing that Phil Mickelson has been so extremely lucky the first 5 holes since execution isn't being rewarded.

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

You still haven't answered Tom's question: What do propose they do?

You've had greenkeepers tell you that it's impossible to just kill the poa and have anything left to putt on. Several coastal California Clubs have ripped up their poa greens and redone them with bent. These are prestigious and affluent Clubs; all reverted to poa within 5 years!

So just what exactly should they do?

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