GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
John Reid: first pro in Philadelphia (and he laid out/fixed up many courses)
Mike Cirba:
Tom,
One of the things that makes these attribution discussions so difficult sometimes is the amount of confliciting evidence.
Do you think like others later that Barker may have simply listed anywhere he may have "consulted", which is very loosely defined?
I've not seen any evidence prior of Barker at Philmont or Bedford Springs. Also, the remodeling and rebunkering of Philmont took place in the 1914-1916 timeframe.
Tom MacWood:
Mike
What conflicting information?
Mike Cirba:
Tom,
I read the article you're speaking about and the only confilicting info I have is that Philmont's second nine built around that same time period was designed by John Reid and Oglesby Paul.
If Barker was involved too, that's great, and I appreciate you finding it, but I don't believe anything we've seen in the local press indicated that.
Similarly for Bedford Springs, I haven't heard of Barker's involvment previously. I know Spencer Oldham designed the first course there, followed later with major revisions by Tilly and Ross.
I do just wish there was more details, as I'm sure you do as well.
Tom MacWood:
--- Quote from: MCirba on April 23, 2011, 02:18:25 PM ---Tom,
I read the article you're speaking about and the only confilicting info I have is that Philmont's second nine built around that same time period was designed by John Reid and Oglesby Paul.
Where did you find that info?
If Barker was involved too, that's great, and I appreciate you finding it, but I don't believe anything we've seen in the local press indicated that.
Similarly for Bedford Springs, I haven't heard of Barker's involvment previously. I know Spencer Oldham designed the first course there, followed later with major revisions by Tilly and Ross.
When did Tilly revise the golf course, and what is the source of that info?
I do just wish there was more details, as I'm sure you do as well.
--- End quote ---
Tom MacWood:
That is what I have on the chain of events at Philmont:
* the club was founded in 1907 and nine course was laid out by John Reid the professional
* in June 1909 it was reported that the club had purchased 54 additional acres and the nine hole course was increased to 18
* in July 1909 Walter Travis played in event at Philmont, partnered with Elis Gimbel, the president of the club against Reid and the VP of the club. Travis and Gimbel won; Travis set the course record. At a dinner afterward honoring Travis the table was decorating with a large model of the new 18-hole course including all the bunkers, mounds and other hazards.
* in August 1909 American Golfer reported on that event and discussed the new golf course. The article said the green committee had refrained from putting in bunkers to any extent, allowing observation of play on the course so as to know the best location for hazards. A very comprehensive modern bunkering scheme however had been prepared and work would be begin shortly.
* in September 1909 American Golfer reported that Barker had been engaged by Philmont
* a 1925 article profiling Philmont (in the Phila. North American) reiterates Reid designed the original nine, and also added the second in 1909 with Ogelsby Paul, a landscape architect.
If I was to guess I'd say Baker was the person responsible for the new modern bunkering scheme (probably reflected in the model), and was not involved in adding the new nine. Modern bunkering schemes was one of his specialities based on his involvement re-bunkering GCGC with Travis. That same year he put in a new bunkering scheme at Springhaven, also in Philadelphia.
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