Evolution of Rye

[Paul Turner]

This might be a long shot, but does anyone know how Rye evolved?

The only specifics I have are from the Confidential Guide where T Doak writes:

"Most amazing to me is the fact that the present course was pieced together over the generations, to inlcuse the best ideas of several different designers.  Of the best holes, only the present 5th and 16th were the same in Colt's original plan.  The short par 4 9th was part of Tom Simpson's 1932 plan to make the course safe from the Camber road; the difficult 4th and 8th, the ideas of Sir Guy Campbell in 1938; and the short 2nd and 7th holes were built by the secretary and the greenkeeper after the Second World War".

Tom Doak also implies that part of the course was, at one time, beyond the Camber road.  If that's true, I find it surprising since that ground looked like part of the Romney Marsh and not suitable for golf at all!

I know the course used to go beyond the cottages behind the current 3rd green.  And that Colt's great 5th hole was the old 8th, which makes sense if the clubhouse position was the same (i.e current 5th green is close to 9th tee).

I didn't see any old routings in the clubhouse.  Is there a Rye Club History book?

Perhaps Rye is the best example of a course evolving until it reached its optimum?

[Richard_Goodale]

Paul

Can't help you on Rye (which, as you know, is one of my faves), but I think that Augusta and Dornoch are two other examples of courses who have proven that too many cooks can, in fact, improve the broth.  Also, I do not at all think that Dornoch, Augusta and Rye are necessarily at their "optimum."  "Very high level of comfort" might be a better description.  Finally, I am amazed that Tom Doak was "amazed."  He should know better.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

A positve case could also be made for extra cooks at Pine Valley

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
An excellent question, I wish I knew the answer. From the little pieces of info I've been able to put together, Colt's original design straddled the road. He had originally layed out Rye in 1894-95, steadily improving the links until he left in 1901.

By 1925 traffic became a problem on the road and the club called Colt back in for suggestions. His suggestion was move the road - which was now possible since the club owned the land north of the road, but expensive. So they called in Braid and he proposed they move the course. The committee sat on Braids idea for a couple years and then reconsidered Colts idea, until ultimately calling Tom Simpson who carried out the alteration on the course, creating new holes across the road. How many holes he created I don't know.

According to Hawtree there were complaints about some of the new holes. Simpson's new 1st and 14th are long gone. Sir Guy Campbell modified Simpson's modifications. Frank Pennink - who designed the clubs third nine -  gives design credit to Colt and credit to Campbell for most of the numerous alterations, and doesn't mention Simpson.

Evidently in 1947 following WWII they called in the mysterious golf architect Captain H.C.Tippet who had designed Montauck Downs in NY and La Gorce in Florida. The 10th was the last new hole, by whom and when I'm not sure. Even with all the changes I'd think there would be more than two holes of Colt's remaining, especially knowing his connections with the O&C Golfing Society and the President's Putter - but who knows.

[Paul Turner]

Tom

Thanks for the research.  I also assume there are more of Colt's original holes, since T Doak does state "of the best holes, only..."  It would be interesting to know which of the "lesser" holes are originals too.

I also wonder when the quarry on the 11th holes was flooded?  It's an unusual feature for a links, with the hole turning gently right and water down the entire right flank.

Here a rather blurry overhead of the current course.  The lighter colour holes nearest the road are the outward 9 holes.  The three holes that parallel the road are the 1st-3rd, the 4th doubles back.  You can just make out the line of cottages close to the 3rd green, where the road makes a left turn.   There's links land beyond the cottages, but the land beyond the road is either fields or housing, so unfortunately no clues there.

[Ran Morrissett]

Doesn't Doak's comment of "most amazing to me is the fact that the present course was pieced together over the generations" apply equally - or more so -  to Royal St. George's?

I have never seen the slightest similarity between the two but it's amazing how they both are so appealing, each in their own unique way.

Paul, I assume you've read Bathurst/Behrend's excellent Oxford & Cambridge Golfing Society? A little architecture is covered but that's not what makes the read so enjoyable.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
I believe I read that there is a car park across the road where a hole or some of the old holes existed. Any clue if the course also extended beyond the 3rd hole, it almost looks like there are golf holes out there.

[Laun (Guest)]

Paul,

Last time I was in the clubhouse there were three or four plans together with the dates of when the course was layed out like that.

[Ran Morrissett]

Behrend's book confirms the land beyond those coastguard cottages was where the course once extended and he notes that "each incarnation of Rye has been a contraction."

Is the area in the top left hand corner where the practise field is? I thought it ran perpendicular to the road?

Has anyone played the nine hole Jubilee course?

[Chris_Hunt]

These might be of interest. Here are plans for remodelling the short course by Donald Steel on display in the clubhouse. Hopefully, noone minds my posting them.  I saw them in the clubhouse.  The pictures are quite out of focus, and I haven't really studied the proposed changes too much.  I also haven't played the short course, either.  The first picture is the existing short course, with the large empty space being the main links.  The second picture has both layouts routed.  It appears that the extra two holes in the 11-hole routing are maybe backups-i.e. the routing doesn't work from 1-11?  Take a look.

[Craig Disher]

The swatch of land in the upper left hand corner of the picture is the practice area which parallels the main road. Down the road and on the same side is a practice green with about 50 yards of fairway.

A member told me that the first hole originally played across the road. Rye abandoned that routing when road traffic increased.

I've played the Jubilee a few times. Its short and on land that's distinctly flatter than main links. During the summer, the club often rests one of the championship 9s and uses the Jubilee to fill in.

I may be wrong but the coastguard cottages seem to predate the course. Could it be that the course went around them to the south? There are some wonderful dunes there that could have been used effectively.

10 and 11 always struck me as two of the weaker holes on the course. Anyone know how they fit into the evolution of the course?

[George Pazin]

Rich -

How much of Dornoch's evolution was due to wartime changes versus decisions to "improve" the course?

[Richard_Goodale]

George

Obviously the 6 new holes added in 1946 was the biggest change, but of the other 12, only 1 or 2 remain largely unchanged from what was laid out by Old Tom Morris.  See my piece on the architectural evolution of the course elsewhere on the website.