Best links holes playing perpendicular to dune valleys

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean Arble often states that the type of links design he sees as uninspired is that which uses solely the dune valleys to route holes.... Tom Simpson agreed with him...

Holes in dune valleys are easy to envisage for any golf enthusiast... Routing good holes across dune valleys is a more difficult task to see....

What are the best holes that play across dune valleys?... Let's leave Par-3's out of it as they are abundant (playing from dune ridge to dune ridge)

[Scott Warren]

Two from the south west: 1st at St Enodoc and 3rd at Trevose would get my vote.

EDIT - Ooh, and 8 at Sandwich.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I don't dislike valley holes, I only wish archies would be more daring with the dunes.  This sort of routing also helps quarter the wind which is always a plus on a windy site. 

Well, Rye is one of the kings of using dune ridges.  I can't think of a course that does it better or in a more varied way.  Amongst the many ridge shots, #s 6 and 16 are valley carries and knob to knobbers.  I spose in a way #13 is carries a wee valley only one must hit the valley perpindicularish over low lying dunes then carry a high dunes to the next valley. 

I know Simpson wasn't keen on the 9th when he was presented with the idea by Bernardo and Co, but I think this valley hole stands out at Rye as the only one.  Plus the hole bleeds left and really isn't a full fledged valley hole - so its good!   

Burnham's 10th, 15th and 18th are knob to knobbers.  The 10th, which plays over a huge dune from the tee may be oddest hole Colt ever created.  Colt cut a gap for the second on #18, but one has to gain the angle for the view.  #15 plays over two valleys to reach the 150 marker; one big and one small. 

St Enodoc's 10th is most unusual in that it looks like one can play a knob to knobber off the tee, but really the hole is more like Rye's 13th where the shot procession is knob to valley; over knob (dune) to flat.  The 16th plays over a low lying valley off the tee and for the second.  Of course, the 6th plays over a high dune and valley to a knob green foir the second shot.  This may be the most famous hole of this type at least in England. 

North Berwick's 17th (a very under-rated hole) plays over a valley, but it too takes two shots to cross the divide from a knob tee to a knob green.

Painswick - tee hee.  The 11th looks like it follows a valley after the initial carry, but I wonder.  Maybe it sets on a shelf of a valley so it doesn't play as a gathering hole - I don't know, but something funky is goin on there!

Pennard is littered with knob to knob shots - maybe more than anywhere else. 

drive on #1
second on #3
drive on #6
drive and second on #7 (outstanding)
drive and second on #8 (very fine)
second on #9 (superb)
drive on #12
second on #16 (zowie!)


Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean Arble often states that the type of links design he sees as uninspired is that which uses solely the dune valleys to route holes.... Tom Simpson agreed with him...

Ally,

Shouldn't that be the other way around? 

Hunstanton has several holes that play across ridges rather than through valleys, but that is mainly because the prominant feature of the landscape is obne large ridge and no real valleys. However, on the back nine 12, 13 and 14 all play across this main ridge. Not saying they are the best, just examples worth noting.

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

Although I can't think of holes that play perpendicularly across the dunes, Silloth is also pretty good at avoiding simply running through the valleys.  In fact the first five holes all move across dunes to some extent, as does 7.  8 is the first to run strictly parallel to the dunes.

[Simon Holt]

Hoylake does this for me.  While I still like it I am not a massive fan of the start and finish to the course but the holes 4 thru 13 are pretty cool.

Number 9 (Punchbowl) crosses the dunes really well and then finishes with a fun green site.  The same can be said for 11, albeit a par 3.

[Bill_McBride]

Rye #13 for sure.  Mike Malone and I were almost killed there by a Canadian lawyer who didn't know about the bell and whistled an iron over our heads in complete silence!   

[Sean_A]

Rye #13 for sure.  Mike Malone and I were almost killed there by a Canadian lawyer who didn't know about the bell and whistled an iron over our heads in complete silence!   

Ace

Innocently walking up the fairway it was me who got the stares for that one!  Afterwards I told Bob it was okay because it sent a message to you lot to shift into 2nd gear - tee hee.

Ciao 

[Ronald Montesano]

And McBride unearths his fear of canucks...wasn't enough to state "a lawyer," now, was it?  Had to bring out the anti-Canadian sentiments again?  How will we ever open our northern border with this type of calumny still fixed in your heart?

[Bill_McBride]

And McBride unearths his fear of canucks...wasn't enough to state "a lawyer," now, was it?  Had to bring out the anti-Canadian sentiments again?  How will we ever open our northern border with this type of calumny still fixed in your heart?

It was a stealth attack, no warning whatsoever.

[David_Tepper]

#5 at Golspie (a 280 yard par-4) plays across not one, but two dune ridges. The first ridge is about 190-200 yards off the tee. You have to decide whether to lay up short of the ridge or try to carry it. The second ridge is directly in front of the green, forcing the player to decide whether to play a run-up shot up and over the ridge on to the green or whether to carry the ridge on the fly. The beach is in play all on both shots all  the way down the left side of the hole.     

[Niall C]

Although I can't think of holes that play perpendicularly across the dunes, Silloth is also pretty good at avoiding simply running through the valleys.  In fact the first five holes all move across dunes to some extent, as does 7.  8 is the first to run strictly parallel to the dunes.

Mark

You are right that Silloth has many holes playing in and out of the dunes like the 7th, or the 5th where the tee is one dune playing down to a valley which lies at an angle. The 14th also plays over a huge "dune" for the approach but thats more like a singular mound with no real valley before or after.

The one hole that probabaly fits the description perfectly is the 3rd which has a tee shot playing perpendicularly over a dune range into a valley and then an approach upto the green which is nestled into the opposite dune range. Fantastic golf hole.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

Agreed, Niall.

Silloth's dunes would almost have to be perfect for golf, I think: big enough that they are bold, separate the holes and provide character, but small enough to traverse without the holes being too dramatic.

[Phil McDade]

Lahinch has the most famous example, no, with Klondyke?

I think Machrihanish has some interesting routing in and around and over dunes, esp. on the front nine.

[Adam Clayman]

Ally, This thread made me appreciate just how unique a land form my home course resides. The dunes are not laid out in such a repeatable manner to qualify for either of your criteria. However, as someone sensitive to walking, the cross dune ridge walks, if done too frequently, can be a bit exhausting for those who of us who are not in sturmbannfuherer shape, and enjoy walking golf. Without spines to ease the up and downs, it can get repetitive and old quickly.

[Garland Bayley]

Disclaimer: Having never played golf across the pond, I cannot assess the quality differences.

Astoria CC on the Oregon coast has a couple of holes perpendicular to the dunes.
Hole 2 276 yds par 4 - raise the interest level playing across a wide valley between dunes to the top of another dune.



The next hole shows what it means to play the valley between the dunes. John Kirk calls this a make your own Dell Hole.

Hole 3 416 yards par 4 - a plays down a very narrow valley between the high dunes on either side to a very small green.



We know, we know, it is a shame they put in the cart path. Melvyn is absolutely aghast.

The other hole perpendicular to the dunes.

Hole 8 371 yards par 4 - drive across valley between dunes to somewhat blind fairway. Positioning on the right for the best angle into the green could bring the bunker into play.





Also note that a severe storm took out 80% of the trees on the course since I took the pictures. The course originally had no trees when it was built in the first half of the 20th century.

[Tony_Muldoon]

You can always use the perpendicular line to frame a shot into the green.  This is the earliest example I’ve seen on the New at St Andrews.  I’d wager that Blyth/Morris deliberately cut this away and ‘created’ this feature.




MacKenzie also did it at Lahinch and Littlestone and Colt did someting simalr at Muirfiled but this tiem the 'cut' was staggered.

However there’s an even better use of this idea.  At Baltray Simplson framed the Green sutting through  not one but two perpendicular dune lines – hit really messes witih your sense of depth perception.


I’ve posted the following before, but it really fits here.

At Seacroft the 13th uses this feature in a bold and original way.  A reachable par 5 with the second shot across no man’s land.  But if you want to play safe, the continuation of the fairway, nearer the green, is hidden behind a range of dunes.  You have to force yourself to play away from the direct line to the green to a blind fairway.  A pox on skycaddies and yardage books as this feature originally really tested the players commitment to what was only a short layup shot.  ON the ground it feels like the 2nd shot to the alternative fairway is 90 degress to the line to the green.

[Bill_McBride]

You can always use the perpendicular line to frame a shot into the green.  This is the earliest example I’ve seen on the New at St Andrews.  I’d wager that Blyth/Morris deliberately cut this away and ‘created’ this feature.

Tony, which hole is that at the New?  Doesn't look familiar.

The 8th there has a dune cut away with the Eden behind and the Old to the left, very cool.

[Bill Gayne]

The fifth at Doonbeg is a really good short par four playing perpendicular to the dunes.

[Bill Gayne]

Would the ninth at Royal County Down be considered playing perpendicular to a dune? If so it's tough to beat.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bill McBride, the photo Tony posted is the 8th at the New course... Maybe the angle just threw you...

Garland, that 3rd hole at Astoria is one of the goofiest holes I've ever seen a photo of. What's it called? "Bobsleigh"... and yes, the cart path...

Ballybunion is famous for its dune structures because they are generally perpendicular to the shore as opposed to most systems which naturally, lie more parallel to the shore... But I guess that big sandhill on the 9th at RCD is an example, Bill... but a poor one in many ways because not only are you just playing down to a valley floor but you are doing it blindly and then along a dune valley... That's not to say it's a bad hole, just not a great example of the question in my opinion...

[Leo Barber]

13th at Paraparaumu Beach is an excellent example.  One of the great holes of australiasia it plays perpendicular across the dunes (and the coastline) to provide a quality link to a strong routing.  It demands two great shots respectively to two great dune systems.

[Niall C]

You can always use the perpendicular line to frame a shot into the green.  This is the earliest example I’ve seen on the New at St Andrews.  I’d wager that Blyth/Morris deliberately cut this away and ‘created’ this feature.




MacKenzie also did it at Lahinch and Littlestone and Colt did someting simalr at Muirfiled but this tiem the 'cut' was staggered.

However there’s an even better use of this idea.  At Baltray Simplson framed the Green sutting through  not one but two perpendicular dune lines – hit really messes witih your sense of depth perception.


I’ve posted the following before, but it really fits here.

At Seacroft the 13th uses this feature in a bold and original way.  A reachable par 5 with the second shot across no man’s land.  But if you want to play safe, the continuation of the fairway, nearer the green, is hidden behind a range of dunes.  You have to force yourself to play away from the direct line to the green to a blind fairway.  A pox on skycaddies and yardage books as this feature originally really tested the players commitment to what was only a short layup shot.  ON the ground it feels like the 2nd shot to the alternative fairway is 90 degress to the line to the green.

Tony

I wonder if the hole on the New was actually laid out like that at first. I wonder if the green was either in front of the ridge or sitting behind the ridge and the gap created in later years. Hiding the green behind the ridge sounds like the sort of thing that they did back then, that said I've never seen a description of the new to be able to say.

Niall

[Garland Bayley]

Ally,

Guess what there are two of them!
Hole 15 268 yards par 4 - very narrow valley between steep dunes leading to the smallest green translates to a short par 4.



Several architects/builders made proposals for the site. They chose the only one that did not choose to rip open the parallel dunes.

Here is that same dune valley undisturbed as it continues off the site of the course.

[Anthony Gray]

  Doesn't this thread screem Alps? Sahara?

  Anthony