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Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 12:01:54 PM »


  With or without the bunkers it plays like a cape hole because of what is down the left.

  Anthony



jonathan_becker

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 12:03:26 PM »
I can't answer why, but these bunkers were not added by the USGA for the Open.  They were put in a few years ago, and I don't think they were done for the Open at that time.

I was just looking at the same image that Bryan posted above and Google Earth has that photo dated 2007.

Matt_Ward

Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 12:29:06 PM »
Frankly that's why AP doesn't understand golf design -- the additional bunkers don't make the hole any better. As Adam said correctly -- they just become an aiming point for the top players to work off in some form or another.

Guys, the 3rd is a pushover hole anyway -- the strong players simply chuckle at the bunkers on the right and go about business with launching one down the left side for a puppy wedge into the green.

Tom Birkert

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 12:49:13 PM »
As I have mentioned before, I think these bunkers only serve to make the hole easier.

A pro would much rather be in any of those bunkers than in the rough. They can control the spin and get clean contact.

With the rough there, it was nigh on impossible for a pro to get close to a right hand pin position. Now they can.

JESII

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2010, 01:00:26 PM »
I have read reports on here from folks at the course that the bunkers are being prepared with 2 inches of fluffy sand to increase the random lies players should expect. I have also read that the rough is being maintained pretty low by US Open standards immediately adjacent to the fairway.

Assuming both are true, wouldn't the players much prefer the rough to the bunkers? Also...the bunkers carry a risk the rough simply does not...the little nooks and crannies where a player is just hoping to get the ball back in play. At worst, the rough will force the player to just play to the front edge of the green.

I do agree that the existence of the bunkers at all reduces any lack of conviction a player would have from the tee...now they know they have to turn it over or lay up...when it's just grass it's not quite as ingrained.

Sean Leary

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »
I think it looks ok and it definitely looks more intimidating. The tee shot did not look intimidating before...

JESII

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 01:12:05 PM »
Question for those that really know the hole...what are you dealing with when you hit it 280 off the tee but miss the fairway left? Are there trees early that you cannot get over right off the tee? The overhead Bryan posted makes it look playable, and clearly the preferred angle...why wouldn't everybody just hit it way left as Macho Matt suggested?

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2010, 01:17:34 PM »
Question for those that really know the hole...what are you dealing with when you hit it 280 off the tee but miss the fairway left? Are there trees early that you cannot get over right off the tee? The overhead Bryan posted makes it look playable, and clearly the preferred angle...why wouldn't everybody just hit it way left as Macho Matt suggested?


  The trees are in play. You have to draw around them. From the back I don't see how a player can go over them.

  Anthony


JESII

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2010, 01:32:43 PM »
Anthony,

The trees right off the tee? Or the ones up by the fairway?

Gary Slatter

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2010, 01:46:59 PM »
What about for Joe Schmoe golfer?  I feel like these bunkers make the hole more tougher for the average player. 

I do not mind the look of the bunkers, they do not offend my untrained eye
I don't mind the look (eye candy) and agree with most that they don't make the hole more difficult, except as Michael says, Joe Schmoe golfers will be in them all day long.  So they have toughened the course for the average player (and Arnie) and made it easier for the Tour guys.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2010, 02:05:29 PM »


Jim,

The ones right off the tee don't look too tall, but they are only 60 to 70 yards away.  Can the players reliably get it up that quick and carry it 280 yards.  Is it worth the risk?  If you check out the USGA web site and go to hole 3, they have a picture from the tee.  The walk through commentary seems to suggest that they think the trees will scare away the players from attempting the aggressive line, and opt for a layup to the fairway.  It's still a short hole and a birdie opportunity.  Not sure why AP thinks the addition of the bunkers makes it a great hole.  If most are laying up anyway, most should not be in the bunkers or rough over there anyway.

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/index.html


JESII

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 02:14:44 PM »
Thanks for the link Bryan...as to the risk, I just don't know...I think these guys generally like to eliminate as many hazards as possible with club and shot selection. Driver over the trees would seem to eliminate everything except real bad lies in the low left rough...and the potential that they don't quite get it over the early trees...which is always fun to see...

Hitting a hybrid seems to keep every hazard on the hole in play...and turns a potential birdie hole into a middle iron.

Roland Waguespack

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 02:18:17 PM »
Geoff Shackelford posted today from the course regarding the 3rd hole:


to actually get to see this atrocious addition in person was particularly disheartening because it has stripped a wonderful bit of subtlety from the course. Prior to the bunker installation, drives not drawn around the corner would run through the fairway into rough, leaving a hanging flyer lie with OB lurking over the green. Barring a really terrible lie, the fairway bunker shot is now easier to control and the scarier elements for the elite player largely eliminated. Plus, they are woefully out of proportion for the hole and look more like beamed in Bay Hill bunkers than Pebble Beach originals.

Carl Rogers

Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2010, 02:32:59 PM »
I, to,think these bunkers are a non-positive.

If any 'improvement' might be contemplated, how would a cross bunker perpendcular to the slope but across the closely mowed area about 80 to 100 yards from the green?

Similar to but a variation from the second hole.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2010, 04:29:59 PM »
When I was there someone had an old yardage book from the 60's. At that time the center bunker, short of the fairway, was just a nasty looking little pot. (Very cool looking ask Michaud) Now it appears to have a sea lion swoop to it. What's with that? What was fascinating about the old yardage book was the carry distance of that pot, from the old back tees?....150 yards.

Great thread.  The rough will likely be more than 3" deep.  5-6" of moist Poa annua would be far more difficult than a fairway bunker shot for the pros.  It's like swinging through a salad.

Thanks to Tom for the Dye philosophy about a single bunker on the outside of the dogleg.  I'm thinking about the Johnny Carson impersonator (Dana Carvey, perhaps?) who would say, "I  did  not  know  that."

Does anybody think the whole is more attractive this way?  Forgive me in advance for saying I think it looks nice.

John, Eye candy is eye candy. When it's obvious construction, against the flow of the terrain, it jars my eye on an aesthetic level. I suppose, It puts the accomplished golfer at ease. I would not know.

Sean, I do recall how the naked natural hillside, was awkwardly dominate in my mind's eye, looming like a green wall menace if I bailed right. I would assume, that awkwardness puts all players, ill at ease? 


Sully, Failure to carry the trees is extremely penal (Or it was 10 yrs ago) The trees sit a ravine that also comes into play right of 16. Almost a guaranteed lost ball when it was unkept.

 Isn't it always the U.S Open where you hear those telling words "Get in the bunker? Isn't this just another example of the non-penal nature of bunkers at a us open?

I wonder if Mike Davis ever considered moving the tees up on this hole, tempting the players to go for it. I know the fourth is being considered, so I suspect this one wasn't. But, it sure could test these guys restraint.

Bryan, I agreed with everything you said in your first post sans aesthetics. To me they're hideous warts placed on sacred ground.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2010, 08:23:18 PM »


Adam,

Wow,  "hideous warts placed on sacred ground"!!  Sounds like your feelings have more to do with blasphemy than aesthetics.   ;)


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2010, 12:25:19 AM »
Not really Brian. I threw the sacred ground in there for affect. Plus a little inside info on the building of the new fifth and those houses. I really have a bug up my ass with the company, because, the company, that has been made rich and famous because of golf, shows so little respect for the finer points of their architecture, it boggles the mind.  Mike Keiser is taking their target market, and I for one am very happy for that.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2010, 04:33:57 AM »
I was wondering if the bunkers weren't partially placed to take the eye away from the dreadful buildings in the background? 

I was also wondering if there couldn't be fairway out past the bunkers but with a centre-line bunker or two cutting off the huge draw a bit.  I do agree with others that something doesn't look quite right with the bunker scheme.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom MacWood

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2010, 06:24:06 AM »
I was wondering if the bunkers weren't partially placed to take the eye away from the dreadful buildings in the background? 

I was also wondering if there couldn't be fairway out past the bunkers but with a centre-line bunker or two cutting off the huge draw a bit.  I do agree with others that something doesn't look quite right with the bunker scheme.

Ciao

What dreadful buildings? I don't recall any buildings in the background.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2010, 06:33:32 AM »
Here is the 1929 version of the bunkering at #3. In this case they chose to fill the barranca (parts of at least) with sand. Egan & Co did that on a number of holes, which gives those bunkers a natural appearance IMO. The dogleg is a little more severe than it appears in this drawing.

Is thick rough through the fairway a worse penalty than sand? Considering the configuration of the green and the greenside bunkering I think it may be.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:37:24 AM by Tom MacWood »

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2010, 09:43:31 AM »
Sean, Those are corporate tents.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2010, 10:17:06 AM »

Sully, Failure to carry the trees is extremely penal (Or it was 10 yrs ago) The trees sit a ravine that also comes into play right of 16. Almost a guaranteed lost ball when it was unkept.



Adam,

I was actually wondering about the ball that carries those trees but misses the fairway left...how bad a spot is that? Can they get it there or is it way out of eye-line?  Google Earth seems to say it's only about 280 to the fairway straight over those trees and I'd wager that 75% or more of the field can comfortable do that.

Matt_Ward

Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2010, 10:29:46 AM »
Great line by Geoff S -- "Bay Hill bunkers" -- at Pebble Beach.

Way to go Arn !

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2010, 11:40:56 AM »
Sully, I would think anywhere within the rough will be a tough up and down. Maybe not a tough par, but as we saw Tiger ten years ago, this was his only hiccup that week.

The angle from the far left will probably have to carry the left green side bunker (If I'm understanding your question). WHile there's plenty of green to work with, unless the pin is up front, there is ob long and nasty deep bunkers to the right of that shot.

I would think the players are thinking birdie here and pulling out driver will be the only way to bring 'other' into play. The  prudent shot is likely a soft draw 235-265, right of the trees, leaving at most 9 iron. But again, my thinking is not necessarily of the current set-up.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ted Cahill

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Re: Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2010, 11:46:35 AM »
Anthony- at yesterday's practice round, I watched Phil and Dustin Johnson go right over the trees. Johnson pulled it off and had a great line to the green. Phil pushed his slightly and had some knarly rough and the #4 bleachers to deal with.  The bunker/right rough discussion is almost a red-herring for this hole. The true risk/ reward off the tee box is the left trees. BTW- Pebble looks wonderful and scary. I watched the players practice a lot of chips on 14. You can tell that is the green to be feared most. Also, most guys playing an iron or hybrid off 8- they don't want any part of the cliff off the tee. I think we will see a lot of long iron 2nd shots at 8!
“Bandon Dunes is like Chamonix for skiers or the
North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is
where those who really care end up.”

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