Pebble Beach 3rd hole New Bunkers discussion

[Adam Clayman]

Can anyone argue that placing those bunkers on the far side of the fairway makes the hole more difficult?

Playing a delicate cut shot (for a rightie) out of rough, on a side hill lie, is easily one way to identify the better golfer. So why have the powers that be put these bunkers in? A frame of reference also adds to diminishing the difficulty for an accomplished golfer. So why would they do it?

Knowing the justification for all the new work, done to this grande dame, was based on fear of being kept out of the U.S. Open rota. Why would they make this hole easier? Especially on the stretch of holes that were already considered the place to go low?

Anyone?

[John Shimony]

Three bunkers assault my eye.  I believe one deep penal bunker would have servered the purpose of adding some variety to the challenge from that side of the fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

Are those bunkers in play for the pros?  I thought they all went to the left of those, but maybe I am seeing the angle wrong, or this is not a photo from the back tee.

John Shimony:  When I worked for Pete Dye, he told me that putting a single bunker on the outside of a dogleg just doesn't work.  It gives the pros an easy reference point.  If they can't reach it, they hit right at it; if they can reach it, they play safely to one side, or club down so they can aim at it.  That is why Pete favors gentle doglegs [15-20 degrees from the line of the tee shot] with lots of trouble on the inside and nothing much on the far side.

[Mike Hendren]

Adam, you nailed it.

Mike

[John Shimony]

Mr. Doak,
That makes sense.  I learn something new everyday on this site.  Thanks.

[Anthony Gray]

  Agree 100% that it makes the hole easier. A shot from one of those bunkers is easier than the deep rough over there. It also changes the golfers idea of where he needs to go with the tee shot. Without the bunkers it looks like you can just hit it out there,but the approach from the right can be very difficult because of the angle of the green and the front right bunker. Players from that angle bring OB off the back into play because they are using a stronger club to get over the bunker.

  Anthony

[John Shimony]

A frame of reference also adds to diminishing the difficulty for an accomplished golfer. So why would they do it?

I guess I missed this line Mr. Clayton.  Well put.

[Michael Taylor]

Adam,

I agree with your sentiments. I feel that the USGA "had" to make some changes to the course, but why fix what ain't broken?

Do you have a photo from the back tee at all? And what's the distance to those bunkers?

Pup

[Steve Kline]

  Agree 100% that it makes the hole easier. A shot from one of those bunkers is easier than the deep rough over there. It also changes the golfers idea of where he needs to go with the tee shot. Without the bunkers it looks like you can just hit it out there,but the approach from the right can be very difficult because of the angle of the green and the front right bunker. Players from that angle bring OB off the back into play because they are using a stronger club to get over the bunker.

  Anthony

Exactly what I was going to say.

[Michael Taylor]

   Players from that angle bring OB off the back into play because they are using a stronger club to get over the bunker.

  Anthony

But would you agree with me that the same is still going to happen from coming out of the bunkers? I'd say there is even more chance of a player hitting OB now, because of a thinly hit bunker shot, than hitting a shot too long out of 4 inch thick rough.

[Adam Clayman]

Michael Taylor, I'm sorry I don't have any more pictures, nor, do I know the distance from the current back tees. Also, I highly doubt the USGA had any input on the impetus for this change. This change reeks of the PBC. As to your last post, a thinly hit shot will not get out of the bunker.

Tom, I'm sure most pros will try to get short and left of them, but, even a pro misses. Early in the round, one may not have figured out how heavy the air is yet, or, how firm the canvas is, and, how and where they are hitting it, that day. Either way, if the justification for this type of bunker is to be penal, the rough was just about as penal as you could get, for the shot demand to this green, making these bunkers anything but penal. IMO, it makes the shot easier.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Playing a delicate cut shot (for a rightie) out of rough, on a side hill lie, is easily one way to identify the better golfer. So why have the powers that be put these bunkers in? A frame of reference also adds to diminishing the difficulty for an accomplished golfer. So why would they do it?
Anyone?

Adam,

How exactly does one play a delicate cut shot from 3" rough? This would be a gouge at best; recall Tiger's experience here in 2000.

My recollection is that Arnold Palmer said something to the effect of "I always thought this hillside was wasted/wanting". A perfect location for eye candy. I do agree that dictation does not identify the best thinker on the course.

[Anthony Gray]

   Players from that angle bring OB off the back into play because they are using a stronger club to get over the bunker.

  Anthony

But would you agree with me that the same is still going to happen from coming out of the bunkers? I'd say there is even more chance of a player hitting OB now, because of a thinly hit bunker shot, than hitting a shot too long out of 4 inch thick rough.

  For players like me,but for the pros it is an easier shot. A flier out of the rough is more dangerous than the bunker. They may can even spin one from those bunkers. How long is that shot..120?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  I think the trees give the player a good referance and the bunker beside them. Curious to see how many drives make those bunkers. Hopefully it is not a driver off the tee with the new tee box. It is an excellent shot makers hole and watching a 3-wood work around the corner is great viewing.

   Anthony

[John Kirk]

Great thread.  The rough will likely be more than 3" deep.  5-6" of moist Poa annua would be far more difficult than a fairway bunker shot for the pros.  It's like swinging through a salad.

Thanks to Tom for the Dye philosophy about a single bunker on the outside of the dogleg.  I'm thinking about the Johnny Carson impersonator (Dana Carvey, perhaps?) who would say, "I  did  not  know  that."

Does anybody think the whole is more attractive this way?  Forgive me in advance for saying I think it looks nice.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Does anybody think the whole is more attractive this way?  Forgive me in advance for saying I think it looks nice.

Without question.  I liked the bunkers.

[Terry Lavin]

They look pretty unpretty if you ask me.

[Anthony Gray]

  The bunkers look better than a hill full of grass but it does change the way the hole is played if you miss your tee shot. Maybe if they were higher up on the bank resulting in more aesthetics and less strategy change.

  Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

John Shimony:  When I worked for Pete Dye, he told me that putting a single bunker on the outside of a dogleg just doesn't work.  It gives the pros an easy reference point.  If they can't reach it, they hit right at it; if they can reach it, they play safely to one side, or club down so they can aim at it.  That is why Pete favors gentle doglegs [15-20 degrees from the line of the tee shot] with lots of trouble on the inside and nothing much on the far side.

If I recall correctly that was the justification for removing a tree in the fairway of a dogleg left par four at Harbor Town.  The professionals just aimed right at it.

Mike

[Bill_Yates]

I posted this picture on another thread.  It gives you different perspective regarding location depth and treatment of the bunkers and surrounds.

Also, the players sight line from the back tees is much more from a left side perspective than the one posted above, bringing the tall trees, heavy rough, etc. left of the fairway into view.  It also presents a much narrower view of the fairway to the player, foreshortened by the height of the fairway bunker on the left, making it play more like a cape hole - hit it short right and safe, or gamble a bit for a short wedge second shot.

Bunkering on Pebble Beach #3

[Bill Hyde]

According to Arnie on the walk through video...these were "absolutely necessary" however I would disagree as I would rather hit out of those bunkers than the rough 10 out of 10 times. Looking at the flyover and the walk through, the only bunker that seems relevant is the last one as most guys will just snap a 3 wood around the corner to the left half of the fairway, giving them the best angle (which you can't see from the tee.) The bunks actually help you play this shot by giving you the aforementioned point of reference. Clearly, it will be much easier to stop a ball from the bunker than the rough.

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/index.html

[Bryan Izatt]

From the middle of the back tees, it looks like about 270 yards to the middle bunker, so a the longer pros will have to take a little off.  Without wind, wouldn't they just fly it over the trees to the left of the bunkers, or are the trees too high and too close to the tee?

Recovery from the bunkers would be easier than the rough for the pros, but if they get up in the eyebrows it would be tougher. 

The pros would be trying to lay up short of the (U.S. Open) rough on that side or drawing it around the trees and down the fairway anyway, so I'm not sure how the new bunkers would affect their strategy in any way.  The penalty for an error in distance control would likely be reduced by the bunkers. 

Of the maybe 500 tee shots on the hole during the week, what percentage would find the previous rough or or the new bunkers?  I'd guess it would be pretty small.

The look of the bunkers is not offensive to me. 

[Michael Huber]

What about for Joe Schmoe golfer?  I feel like these bunkers make the hole more tougher for the average player. 

I do not mind the look of the bunkers, they do not offend my untrained eye

[Wyatt Halliday]

Weren't most guys just bombing it over the trees during the AT&T? There are only three things I can see putting a stop to that: a strong headwind, severe rough near that cart path or a grandstand placement.

I remember Dustin Johnson having something like 55 yds.into the green.

[Jim Hoak]

I can't answer why, but these bunkers were not added by the USGA for the Open.  They were put in a few years ago, and I don't think they were done for the Open at that time.