[Ally Mcintosh]

The question is in the title... It really means which courses have room for the most improvement (in your opinion)?... But obviously, I'd like to hear why and what ideas you would have...

... Also, which courses have actually undergone recent makeovers and are they improvements?

Wide topic - most likely tackled before...

[Jamie Barber]

Possibly not viable now, but I'd like to restore some of the original routing at Prince's. Still it has many fine holes but almost all play along the valleys of the low dunes and parallel to the shore. I'd like to see at least two of the original holes which crossed the dunes back in play, but it doesn't fit so easily with the current routing.

[Bill_McBride]

This comment also applies to Patrick Mucci's thread above about courses being overshadowed by their neighbor.

The New Course is certainly overshadowed by the Old at St Andrews.

I think that a program of new bunkering, more in play off the tee, and perhaps some zipping up of some greens, could move the New into contention with the old.  With the exception of the double green at 3/15, and the marvelous swale in the 5th green, I can't think of many distinctive features in the greens.  The routing is terrific.

So there's my candidate, the New Course (1895 "new"!)

[Garland Bayley]

Tralee Golf club, the Sandpines (missed opportunity) of Ireland.

[Adam Lawrence]

Possibly not viable now, but I'd like to restore some of the original routing at Prince's. Still it has many fine holes but almost all play along the valleys of the low dunes and parallel to the shore. I'd like to see at least two of the original holes which crossed the dunes back in play, but it doesn't fit so easily with the current routing.

Jamie - I was going to say Prince's too. I don't think a restoration of the pre-war championship routing is completely out of the question - I know there is some movement in that direction. The only question in my mind is to what extent the original landforms survived the war.

[Steve Salmen]

The last two holes of Machrihanish.  Spectacular 16 hole course with a horrible ending.  My friend suggested building a par three left of the 8th green that flows towards  the back of the 9th tee.  Then turn 17 and 18 into a par 5.  There's something about 11 I don't care for, but I like how the hole goes east instead of continueing back south.

[Bill_McBride]

Possibly not viable now, but I'd like to restore some of the original routing at Prince's. Still it has many fine holes but almost all play along the valleys of the low dunes and parallel to the shore. I'd like to see at least two of the original holes which crossed the dunes back in play, but it doesn't fit so easily with the current routing.

Jamie - I was going to say Prince's too. I don't think a restoration of the pre-war championship routing is completely out of the question - I know there is some movement in that direction. The only question in my mind is to what extent the original landforms survived the war.

That would make we Sarazen fans very pleased!

[Jamie Barber]

amie - I was going to say Prince's too. I don't think a restoration of the pre-war championship routing is completely out of the question - I know there is some movement in that direction. The only question in my mind is to what extent the original landforms survived the war.

I think the bulk of it is still there, certainly 17 of the original 18 greens survived. I'm not in favour of a complete rebuild, but I'd like to see a couple of the original holes.

What do you mean by "some movement in that direction"? I've seen course improvement plans and this is not even on the long term agenda I think. Next major work is a restoration of the old clubhouse and dormie houses to provide onsite accommodation (work began on phase 1 last week)

[Gary Slatter]

This comment also applies to Patrick Mucci's thread above about courses being overshadowed by their neighbor.

The New Course is certainly overshadowed by the Old at St Andrews.

I think that a program of new bunkering, more in play off the tee, and perhaps some zipping up of some greens, could move the New into contention with the old.  With the exception of the double green at 3/15, and the marvelous swale in the 5th green, I can't think of many distinctive features in the greens.  The routing is terrific.

So there's my candidate, the New Course (1895 "new"!)

I would second the NEW COURSE.  The fairways need some TLC and as you say Bill, the greens need a little zipping although I always found them to have some pretty decent but subtle features and approaches.   

[Niall C]

I'll nominate Cruden Bay. Its the only course I've been angry with, not angry with myself for bad golf but actually angry with the course. How can a course start so well have a couple of holes that would be mediocre on an inland course then later on have 4 holes all with blind or semi blind approaches. I quite like quirk but the finish at Cruden Bay is a crushing let down.

I imagine that it would be difficult to do anything worthwhile with the two holes at the hill (8th/9th) but the surely something could be done with the last half a dozen holes after all there is some good terrain which could make some really interesting golf.

If its not being greedy I would nominate another sacred cow and that is Dornoch, too many plateau greens for my liking.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Of the ones I have played I would nominate Pyle and Kenfig particularly the dunes area of the back nine is absolutely spectacular and a wasted opportunity even though there is a Colt front 9 which has improved vastly in terms of playing conditions in the past few years. The area where the back nine loop is has a few extra holes internally which has massive potential to be Wales's no 1 course. There is enough dunes in this area to built 5 to 8 more courses 

Cheers
Ben 

[Neil_Crafter]

I would like to nominate The Eden.
The evisceration of this course when the practice facility was crudely inserted was a sad day and something desperately needs to be done with the added holes out the end which feel they were stolen from a 20 quid municipal course somewhere and dropped in by helicopter.

[Sean_A]

I am not quite sure what make over means, but courses which I think an excellent modern designer could vastly improve if the current designs were scrapped are:

Cruden Bay
Burnham & Berrow
Hillside
Turnberry (the one which bugs me the most)

Ciao

[Mike Policano]

I would recommend a make-over of Ballybunion-Cashen. A great piece of property and a missed opportunity.

I would also flip the nines at Portstewart. The front nine is so dramatic that the back is a letdown. Rather play the back first and build up to the back.

[Wade Schueneman]

How about Royal County Down?  It is my favorite experience in golf, but it has the potential to be even better.  First, there are some great dunes towards the back of the property (although they may be unavailable due to ecological regulations).  Second, if the club would carve up the Annsley then it could add some great holes to the back nine.  Third, a few simple alterations would really improve the present back nine.

Ex. IMHO

Excise #14 and tee #15 from the present 14th tee (or thereabouts).

Excise #10 and put the 18th green where the present 10th green is situated.  This would make a hole that bends left and then back right into a natural valley somewhat like #11 at Oakland Hills (or is it #12?).

A few of the greens on the back could be reworked.

I guess rather than make a good course great I would rather see a great course made the GREATEST.

[Joshua Pettit]

I'd love a crack at Cruit Island.

[Kevin Pallier]

I am not quite sure what make over means, but courses which I think an excellent modern designer could vastly improve if the current designs were scrapped are:

Cruden Bay
Burnham & Berrow
Hillside
Turnberry (the one which bugs me the most)

Ciao

Sean

Good call on B&B - those dunes on the B9 surely could have been touched moreso. Royal St. David's for the same reason particulalry on the F9.

[Sean_A]

I am not quite sure what make over means, but courses which I think an excellent modern designer could vastly improve if the current designs were scrapped are:

Cruden Bay
Burnham & Berrow
Hillside
Turnberry (the one which bugs me the most)

Ciao

Sean

Good call on B&B - those dunes on the B9 surely could have been touched moreso. Royal St. David's for the same reason particulalry on the F9.

The problem with Burnham was two-fold.  Land became available as the sea receded.  This means the course evolved in a piece meal fashion out of necessity.  Money too has always been a bit of an issue.  If the spine of dunes separating the front and back nines and some of the dunes on the Channel Course were used in a new course it could be a cracker.  Mind you, it would take a lot of earth moving to pull it off.  I am afraid that a big chunk of the dunes has now been sacrificed to reservoir - making it more difficult to envision a new course even if it were nothing more than a pipe dream. There is also the issue of sea coming back as there seems to be some evidence for this.  Any new new design would likely (wisely?) have to take this into account as well. 

Ciao

[James Boon]

Ally,

An interesting topic, probably because there have been so few links courses that have had significant makeovers, especially in recent years. And I think this is down to what Wade touches on, ecological issues. So many of these courses run through dune systems that have now been designated SSSIs (Site Special Sceintific Interest) and this would make any major work virtually impossible. Look at how the only two new authetic links courses I can think of that have been built recently (Askernish and Mach Dunes) by virtually nothing more than mowing the existing grass. I'm no expert but its possible that if a lot of these links courses hadn't been built through dunes way back in time, then even fewer of these rare habitats would exist as they would have probably been developed over by something less sympathetic than a golf course?

However, as this is a hypothetical discussion...

I agree with wade that some work at Royal County Down could really lift that course, at the very least do something to 17 and 18.

I can see Sean and Kevin's point about Burnham, but I think I'd rather see some of the flatter holes moved a touch closer to the dunes perhaps, rather than wholesale changes just to get the course more amongst the big dunes.

How about Saunton? 2 good courses there, but I would much prefer to improve the quality of the East course and then maybe have a small relief nine holes, if by using some of the land from the West course you could really improve the East (to Open Championship standard perhaps?) then is that not better use of the land?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

James

The problem with pushing holes more in the dunes from the current layout would only create more valleyish holes.  I am tyhinking #4 cutting through the Channel 9.  #10 green being pushed right - though I like this idea if more fairway was created left.  #11 being pushed right, but I really like this hole as is!  What else is there to do to get dunes more in play without wholesale changes?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

An interesting topic, probably because there have been so few links courses that have had significant makeovers, especially in recent years. And I think this is down to what Wade touches on, ecological issues. So many of these courses run through dune systems that have now been designated SSSIs (Site Special Sceintific Interest) and this would make any major work virtually impossible.

I'm not sure about this James...

I agree with you in relation to those above who talked about moving courses in to new Dune territory (such as RCD at the back)... That's an easy out and more often than not, impractical (often to do with ecological) issues... The question was more to do with improvements within a current site footprint (give or take a little) and there you rarely have the same ecological issues to deal with... In fact, taking Ireland as an example, ALL existing golf courses are NOT given statutory legal protection, meaning that development within the site boundaries is a free-for-all (more or less).... The SSSI / SAC conservation issues only come in to effect with new sites... I can't see Scotland and England being a whole lot different...

[James Boon]

Sean,

You are probably right. I just wouldn't want to see wholesale changes, just to bring the dunes into play. When I first played Burnham I was so blown away with the holes through the dunes that I often considered the likes of 7 and 11 a bit dull, but with more plays and a few words from you, I've grown to love these holes.

Ally,

My only experience of development on a SSSI site was from about 7 or 8 years ago when I did a design to renovate an old farm building surrounded by SSSI land, which didn't come to anything. However, I got the impression that there would be very little chance of doing anything in the SSSI other than leaving it alone, or perhaps something which would enhance the biodiversity.

As far as golf courses are concerned, I suppose my "virtually impossible" comment was based on how I interpreted the possibilities of working in a SSSI site for larger changes as you mentioned. I cant imagine a remodelled green or some new bunkers or tees would be that difficult to achieve, but completly new holes to replace existing ones may prove trickier.

I think its great that we have links courses surrounded by such fantastic flaura and fauna, but at the same time it would be great to be able to improve these courses where required.

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

James,

I'm not for necessarily developing in to SSSI land (although each case to its own)... What I'm saying is that land owned by existing golf courses is never deemed to be SSSI or SACs (certainly in Ireland)... Completely new holes are almost always on the agenda should you be staying within the existing land...

And the spirit of this thread is to suggest changes within existing land...

[Cristian]

The question is in the title... It really means which courses have room for the most improvement (in your opinion)?... But obviously, I'd like to hear why and what ideas you would have...

... Also, which courses have actually undergone recent makeovers and are they improvements?

Wide topic - most likely tackled before...

I think it is considerations like this, that ruined some of the classics in the first place, so to be on the safe side: Hands Off! 

[Gary Slatter]

This has become quite scarey, thankfully most "improvements" will never happen.   It would be nice to restore the EDEN to 18 holes.

There are so many bad courses needing help we should avoid changes to the good or great.   

I mentioned the NEW COURSE, I also think the KINTYRE COURSE could really use the help.  AILSA has a couple boring holes but Kintyre seemed to have 14 or so, and could be spruced up giving them a good 36 holer. 

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