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Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2010, 04:13:34 PM »
From my sampling of Doak's courses (Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Stone Eagle), I think a a stimp reading of about 9.5 is ideal. Do any of his other courses feature less challenging/complex/sloping greens that are reasonably playable at higher speeds? If not, I would suggest that golfers who prefer more their putting surfaces to be flatter and faster stick to course by other design firms. So, assuming that a majority of the members are demanding changes to the greens at Rock Creek, the following questions fill my diminutive mind.



How many members does Rock Creek have?

What is the average distance in miles between the golf course and those members' respective primary residences?

If the answer to both questions is a resonably high number (say a 100 members that live an average of 500 miles away), I would have to wonder why so many would join a club so far from home to putt on greens they don't enjoy.


"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2010, 04:15:33 PM »
We have heard a fair amount of protest over the greens at Rock Creek.

There is a reasonable amount of slope, and they keep them bullet-fast, paying no attention at all to our recommendations on speed. 


seems like as a simple solution........
 :o :o :o :o ??? ??? ::) ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 04:42:54 PM »
We have heard a fair amount of protest over the greens at Rock Creek.

There is a reasonable amount of slope, and they keep them bullet-fast, paying no attention at all to our recommendations on speed.  On top of that, because of the mountainside terrain, people get fooled as to how much slope there is, so good players in particular are likely to complain.

Our client, Mr. Foley, is a member of Oakmont (among other places), and I have not been above asking how Rock Creek's greens compare to those.  But it's possible they may insist we rebuild a few of them at some point.  It hasn't happened yet, though.

Tom, I'm on the way home from a weekend of very bad weather on the outstanding golf course at Ballyneal.

The greens there are among the most interesting and challenging I've ever seen. There are some wild contours and steep slopes (such as rear of #7!!!) and bowls aplenty that offer many opportunities to putt away from the hole. 

The green speed was maybe a hair below optimal.  How would you compare the design of the greens to those at Rock Creek?

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 05:18:15 PM »
I played Rock Creek on opening day this year, the greens were quite slow due to being so very early in the season.  I didn't think the contouring was over the top at all, in fact quite fun.  But I'm sure that's heavily due to the speeds they were at. 

That said, there were DEFINITELY spots that had been leveled off and regrassed either late last year or early this year.  The caddie said Mr. Foley insisted himself.  Who knows if that's true, just what we were told. 

I didn't 3 putt all day, in fact I noticed I made 17 pars in a row when I got to 18 tee....proceeded to cold shank my 9 iron approach and bogey the last to make sure that streak ended!  Enjoyed the course very much, hope to get back someday....a closer airport would be nice if someone can make that happen :)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2010, 05:18:21 PM »
By the way, I regard Rock Creek's greens as being considerably better and more enjoyable than Pasatiempo's greens.  Too bad they are maintaining the greens at top speed all the time.  It's the difference between tough modern and tough classic greens; the modern ones are  better desuigned for modern playing conditions.

Awesome place.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2010, 05:23:13 PM »
John K - that has confused me - please clarify - is your assessment of Pasatiempo v. Rock Creek based on each at optimum speed?

I ask because I would agree that Pasa too fast is no fun for anyone; you're right - those greens were not designed to be modern-fast.  But Pasa at the proper speed - which is how they tend to keep them most of the time these days - those are very very great.  If Rock Creek's greens are superior to those by any measure when they all are playing as they should, well then that is really saying something.





Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2010, 05:47:20 PM »
This thread highlights a major Catch 22 for archies.  We never know how our courses are going to be maintained.  Some have even written maintenace specs to avoid criticism when a super/MC/Owner takes it upon themselves to veer away from the design intent.  It would be interesting to know what expectations or directives - preconstruction - were given to Tom by Mr. Foley.  I could easily extrapolate him wishing for "greens as hard as Oakmont" and Tom delivering.  But, at 9-10.  Then, the same guy turns to the super and says, "Oakmonts are 12, I want these 12 too."  Presto, the greens are too hard and it the architects fault.

Personally, I think speed is overrated for 99.9% of players.  with Poa/Bent greens, lower heights afforded greens that putted TRUE - fast was just a bi-product that was measurable.  I would give higher marks to a green that putted true and held the line at 9 than one that needed to get to 11 to achieve the same results.

But, too many knuckleheads are addicted to Stimp #'s and like over-watered/over-fertilized, it's a hard habit to break.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2010, 05:50:50 PM »
I played Rock Creek on opening day this year, the greens were quite slow due to being so very early in the season.  I didn't think the contouring was over the top at all, in fact quite fun.  But I'm sure that's heavily due to the speeds they were at. 

That said, there were DEFINITELY spots that had been leveled off and regrassed either late last year or early this year.  The caddie said Mr. Foley insisted himself.  Who knows if that's true, just what we were told. 


Clint:

We did a bit of work on two greens last fall, at Mr. Foley's request.  The work was on #4 and on #9.  I understood the request on #4, the green had a bunch of small bumps in it that didn't really fit the scale of the rest of the hole.  The area in question on #9 didn't seem like a big deal at all to me, but it didn't bother me to make the change, either.  I have not actually seen the changes in person, as they decided it had to be done when I was committed elsewhere, but Eric Iverson did the work and he is the one who did a lot of the original work.

What bothers me about this whole discussion (and why I wish it would end) is it is just adding fuel to the fire.  Hardly anyone has even seen or played on these modified greens, so discussing them doesn't make a whole lot of sense right now.  

For that matter, neither does it help for the guys who love the course to tell the members they are stupid not to like the greens ... any more than it helps for a couple of members to gripe about the greens to their guests or anyone else who will listen.

I will simply repeat that I think this course is some of my best work and I hope the membership will come to appreciate it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2010, 05:56:07 PM »
Just for the record, I never expected these greens to be maintained at 9 on the Stimpmeter.  They would be fine at 10, and playable (but pretty darned hard) at 11.  I am guessing they get them to 11 fairly often, and that's where the griping starts.

[It's the same story at Sebonack, incidentally ... they get the greens up to 13 there as often as they can without killing them.]


Bill McBride:  These Rock Creek greens are very different than Ballyneal's.  They are not nearly as severe on the big contours within the greens.  But, Ballyneal's severity is tempered by the fact that most of the greens sit in bowls, and it's not like you are going to putt off the greens very often, with a couple of exceptions.  Because of the steady slope of the property -- 360 feet of elevation change, which is more than Pasatiempo -- it was inevitable that Rock Creek's greens would have some tilt to them, and a downhill putt is rarely "contained" if you let it get away from you.

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2010, 06:43:04 PM »
It amazes me on this site how people -- certain ones mind you -- can throw forward some minor point -- and it's very small if that at all. Rock Creek is a joy to play -- getting to Deer Lodge is part of the enjoyment but once there the product speaks for itself. I've had the pleasure in playing plenty of superior golf courses in my day -- Rock Creek easily makes my personal top 50.

For those who have not played it your Doak file is incomplete until you have.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2010, 07:07:05 PM »
John K - that has confused me - please clarify - is your assessment of Pasatiempo v. Rock Creek based on each at optimum speed?

I ask because I would agree that Pasa too fast is no fun for anyone; you're right - those greens were not designed to be modern-fast.  But Pasa at the proper speed - which is how they tend to keep them most of the time these days - those are very very great.  If Rock Creek's greens are superior to those by any measure when they all are playing as they should, well then that is really saying something.



Tom Huckaby,

Yeah..that's what I think.  At proper speed, Rock Creek's greens are decisively more fun.  Modern smooth grasses with slopes designed for today's green speeds.  They yield a broader spectrum of putts that are more interesting to read, execute and watch.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2010, 07:50:28 PM »
It amazes me on this site how people -- certain ones mind you -- can throw forward some minor point -- and it's very small if that at all. Rock Creek is a joy to play -- getting to Deer Lodge is part of the enjoyment but once there the product speaks for itself. I've had the pleasure in playing plenty of superior golf courses in my day -- Rock Creek easily makes my personal top 50.

For those who have not played it your Doak file is incomplete until you have.

Is your comment a response to my tongue in cheek mentioning of needing a closer airport?

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 12:18:19 AM »
Clint:

No -- not at all.

I just find it hard to believe that because the club deals with two greens that that action is then widened into a series of bitch and moans from certain people that the overall green contours at Rock Creek are out-of-bounds. It just amazes me that people can leap off the cliff of extrapolation with such a yarn.

Rock Creek is not as demanding in terms of green speeds and contours like Sebonack. That doesn't mean to say the greens at the MT layout cannot be increased for overall Stimp speed.

What's really shocking is how s-l-o-w the top tier mags have been in placing Rock Creek. In today's nonstop info age the tired excuse of "we have not gotten enough panelists to go there" just doesn't cut it.

For all the ink that Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes rightly create -- Rock Creek is really the stellar course that lies in the shadows -- for now.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2010, 12:47:31 AM »
It is disappointing to hear that there is still talk of taming some of the greens at RCCC; I found them to be great fun and of terrific variety, with plenty of concave and convex green sites  to either funnel the ball toward the hole, or away from it (a few greens seem to accomplish both).  

 I really liked the greens, but I can understand why some find them severe, especially in their receptivity in tough conditions.   For example, both the 16th and the 11th greens were great fun, but both were extremely difficult to hold and to putt when firm.  Given the difficulty of these holes and others tee to green, it doesn't surprise me that there have been some complaints.  The catch is that some of the more severe green sites (like these two) help make for some of the most exciting and interesting holes out there.  It would be a shame to see them altered unnecessarily.  

That being said, it probably isn't productive to just dismiss the complaints as the whining of incompetent golfers, as Matt Ward (and perhaps a few others) seem to want to do . . .

". . .  It's laughable -- the issue for such people is a simple one -- hit better approaches to get closer and practice one's putting.
. . . Those who raise the issue need a few putting lessons or hit their approaches closer to the hole.
. . . Rock Creek is not DUMB DOWN golf -- it's about producing fine golf shots that will be approrpiately rewarded when executed well.
. . . when people bitch and moan about green speeds then frankly some of that has to be a "look in the mirror" situation
. . .  Tom provided plenty of ways to get to the pin location -- it's up the player(s) to know their putting stroke and if in doubt hit better approach shots to compensate for it.
. . . People will bitch and moan just for the sake of being heard because saying "they suck" or "can't putt worth a lick" is far too e-z."


This kind of reactionary macho garbage is rarely productive.  Telling those complaining to man up because "they suck" and cannot hit it close doesn't add much to the conversation, does it?    Plus, as Tom Doak mentioned, it is almost invariably the better golfers who raise this type of complaint, not those (like me) who actually do suck at golf and cannot hit is close.

Based on what I have heard from people in Montana and out, my guess is that Rock Creek is facing the same issues that great courses have been facing for the past century, and it is likely that the problem is the opposite of what Matt sees.   Rock Creek has probably forced a small group of very good golfers-- those who usually can hit it close and make their putts--  well outside their comfort zone.   Trying to throw it close isn't necessarily the best play, and being close to the pin isn’t a guarantee of a made putt, even for a very good putter.    Better golfers tend to expect a certain payoff for quality ball striking, yet quality ball striking might not produce these results at Rock Creek.   And, unfortunately, the top golfers generally hold sway over lesser players, on the mistaken assumption that good golfers must have a better understanding of golf courses.  

Maybe what the course needs is a strong internal advocate, preferably a very good player, who understands and appreciates what makes the place so special and is willing to take on the voices of those who want to see the same sort of payoff for “shot value” as they see at other courses.

________________________________________________________

Tom H.

As I was playing and loving OM I was wondering which was more fun; OM or RCCC, and I am not sure I have an answer.  As for whether anyone should see one over another, I think the answer depends very much upon who is asking.    While my answer might be different if I weren't answering "America's Guest," I'd say that you, Mr. Huckaby, should fly to Missoula, Butte, or Helena and play RCCC.    
      --  OM is a terrific course flowing over the kind of terrific land where one might expect to find a terrific course, even though going in some might have thought that when it came to quality golf land, OM must be suckling mother Bandon's hind tit.   Yet it more than holds its own when compared to any of the other Bandon courses.   Not only that, but OM's explicit incorporation of the foundational elements of excellent strategic golf holes makes it even more special, and I think you would probably come away from it not only in love with OM, but also with even a greater appreciation (if possible) for the likes of TOC, NGLA, CPC, and maybe even a few relative dog tracks like Rustic Canyon.  
     --   But even against all that, I still think RCCC would be my recommendation for you, personally, just because it is just so damn different.  OM is more in your wheelhouse/comfort zone, while RCCC is flowing down a mountainside which is blanketed by fricken' glacial moraine (think sand dunes where each grain of sand is about the size of a Volkswagen beetle.)  RCCC is so much better than any modern mountain course that to my mind it ought to entirely transform our expectations of what a golf course on a tough site can be.    In fact it is so good it almost seems silly to think of it is a mountain course at all, and almost insulting to limit it with such a description.   It is a hell of a lot of fun, even as much fun as places like Sand Hills, Ballyneal, OM, B Trails, PD, and even some of the old greats.

-- So to you I'd say go play RCCC.  But to others I might say go play OM.  In fact, if you do go play RCCC you might consider telling everyone you meet at RCCC to go play OM so that they might better understand and appreciate what makes RCCC so god damned good, and so they might think twice about changing it.  

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 12:51:39 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2010, 08:54:38 AM »
John K - thanks for clarifying re the greens - man they must be something at Rock Creek.

David M - thanks also for all of that - that explains it perfectly.  RC it is... "different" makes all the sense in the world to me...Just hope I get to go anywhere again some day. 

Tom H.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:55:46 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2010, 09:49:50 AM »
David M:

Glad you can offer a spin on what you think I said that has no real relationship to what I think about the course itself.

Let me help you if I can -- Rock Creek's greens are not, in my experience, truly contoured and pitched to the point that they warrant the comments made. My comments, are not as you so ignorantly blast as "macho garbage" and they were not solely aimed as you erroneously claim just to "incompetent golfers." Often times the people who bitch the most about such greens are the better players who prefer everything to be "fair" and absent anything equating to outside their comfort box.

I'm so happy to see you have not lost your desire to be the spokesperson for all those who are beyond single digit levels.

If one were to examine what Doak and Nicklaus did at Sebonack the nature of the greens there and how they are even more sloped and contoured then the nature of what Rock Creek is about would be seen for what it is. Often times those who complain the loudest have a limited reference point as well.

People, of all handicap levels, just need to get on with the game at Rock Creek. The place works very well -- it just so happens to be a tad more intense than places like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal and Tom's outline of how that came to pass makes perfect sense.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2010, 01:39:07 PM »

Bill McBride:  These Rock Creek greens are very different than Ballyneal's.  They are not nearly as severe on the big contours within the greens.  But, Ballyneal's severity is tempered by the fact that most of the greens sit in bowls, and it's not like you are going to putt off the greens very often, with a couple of exceptions.  Because of the steady slope of the property -- 360 feet of elevation change, which is more than Pasatiempo -- it was inevitable that Rock Creek's greens would have some tilt to them, and a downhill putt is rarely "contained" if you let it get away from you.


Tom, I was really blown away by the greens at Ballyneal.  The contours, of course, such as those that divide up #12 into those bowls, but also how puttable those bowls and other pin areas are throughout the course.  It can take a great deal of imagination to get close to those pins - and occasionally some embarrassment when you miscalculate!   But I haven't had as much fun on greens for years!

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2010, 02:28:44 PM »
Matt Ward:
 you said,     "If one were to examine what Doak and Nicklaus did at Sebonack the nature of the greens there and how they are even more sloped and contoured then the nature of what Rock Creek is about would be seen for what it is. Often times those who complain the loudest have a limited reference point as well"

Have you ever heard the term 2 wrongs don't  make a right?  I mean how does the slope at Sebonack justify less slope on Rock Creek? With this logic, if people complain about Sebonack, we can just build a course with an incredible amount of slope and tell people at Sebonack to suck it up because the greens are not as bad as the new course.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2010, 11:33:04 PM »
Matt,

See the words in italics above?  All crap about people bitching and moaning and needing to hit it better and closer and needing to practice more and take lessons, putting lessons, and on and on and on . . . ?   I didn't make this garbage up.  It is all you. Your words, and from this thread alone.  And of course it is the same asinine macho drivel you have been spewing for at least a decade.   So let's not pretend you've been misunderstood or misrepresented.  Given that you have written the exact same thing thousands of times, it just isn't that difficult to figure out.

The irony, of course, is that you have a lot in common with these strawmen golfers who supposedly suck, need lessons, etc. and yet are still "bitching and moaning" about golf courses.    I'll bet you have no idea what.

-----------------------------------

Keith OHalloran

That is a good point, at least generally.  The reality may be that some of the role models courses may be above reproach, but perhaps they shouldn't be.   As for Sebonac and Oakmont, I haven't had the pleasure and therefor cannot say one way or another.    

On the other hand, sometimes seeing and playing an excellent golf course can change the way one views other courses.    I know that for me, seeing courses with really outstanding yet a bit crazy greens (NGLA immediately comes to mind) has impacted the way I view all courses.     Sometimes a great course with crazy/great greens can really drive home the point that great golf design isn't really about striking the balance on the easy/hard continuum, but rather is about much more.  
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 11:35:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2010, 08:10:06 AM »
Matt Ward -

What is your handicap?

What are your two lowest eligible tournament scores?

When you hit a 360 yard Wardian blast off the tee, does it always occur on the first attempt, or do you sometimes take a mulligan or two?

Thanks !
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2010, 09:00:11 AM »
Perhaps one of the reasons I have trouble with this is that all of my clients love Pacific Dunes, and they never stop to think that the greens at Pacific rarely get anywhere near 11 on the Stimpmeter.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2010, 09:25:34 AM »
Perhaps one of the reasons I have trouble with this is that all of my clients love Pacific Dunes, and they never stop to think that the greens at Pacific rarely get anywhere near 11 on the Stimpmeter.

.....even after you remind them, right?   ;)

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2010, 10:58:37 AM »
Keith:

I never justified less slope at Rock Creek. I simply said, in the event you missed it, that I didn't find the green speeds / contours Rock Creek to be excessive nor the contours done to such a degree that it would inhibit players from enjoying themselves. Sebonack has even more contours and movements than Rock Creek in my mind. I've heard a similar argument about Sebonack (green contours too intense and speeds too fast) and when comparing the two courses I would say the LI layout has more of a potential issue in that regard than the one in MT.







Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2010, 11:11:07 AM »
I am kind of sorry I started this thread. I was shocked to hear someone say they were going to redo the greens at the best modern course I have played and that same person thought Tom Fazio was the architect that I thought he had to be wrong. Anyway Huckaby needs to get to Rock Creek as David's description was spot on.
Mr Hurricane

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek's greens
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2010, 11:19:16 AM »
Jim, I need to get to a lot of places.  I just figure I can sell the home front on maybe one frivolous trip in the next decade.  Seriously.  So these two contenders came to mind as places that would not only be fun, but need to be seen.  I think RC wins in the latter part too... MANY people will get to OM, they sure as hell don't need another rater/tourist like me.  But maybe RC does?

Totally outside of the rater crap, another contender has been mentioned to me:  Wolf Creek down in Texas.  Check the current thread on that.  In terms of pure raw golf fun, man that might take the new leader role. 

Hell it's all speculation anyway as like I say, golf travel is not a reality for me.  Now I am adding in King's Putter at Bandon next year, so that might seal the deal here anyway... hard to believe I can go anywhere else if I do that.

But it is fun to speculate, as frustrating as it may be.

TH

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