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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 05:35:38 PM »
"Does a good site ever take away from the golf?"

Call me dense but I don't see how it could!

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the site,
But in ourselves... that we are underlings."

Julius Caesar-GCA

Huh?   ???   I knew it, I AM dense!   :P

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 05:43:21 PM »
Garland, I did not say it was a difficult walk, only unnecessary. If it was all done to take advantage of views, resulting in yet another collection of down hill tee shots, the routing suffers, imo. 

+1.

As I and others have stated, it would have been interesting what have been done with 7-9 (although 7 is a very good hole by itself) had they decided not to go up the hill and used the driving range area instead.

Sean,

One hole, the 9th, does not make a "collection of down hill tee shots".

Clearly the 8th is the weakest hole on the course. However, there is no guarantee a better pair of holes than the 8th and 9th would have been built in the driving range area. Your proposal seems to be to take the most featureless part of the land and use it to build something better than what they built. Not a clear winning solution IMO.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 09:19:16 PM »
 8) yeh garland, we played chambers bay,.. may 10th,  in about 4:20.. (and that only because we were able to finally play through a 2-some at 9 and then a 4-some at 11 who were deadly slow, being able to make up significant time on the back..

I'll bet they shuttle pros up to #4 tee and between 9-10 and maybe 14-15.. due to crowds and keeping playing times reasonable.  Heck, we saw a shuttle carry a single from the temp #4 green up to the upper #5 tee.. why would they do that?

easy walk from #13 in..  downhill

i enjoyed the CB golf more than the view there,
i suppose if the Rocky Mountains were next to ballyneal, it'd be the same for me.. used to shorelines and mountains
s

does a poor site ever add to the golf?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:21:54 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 10:38:36 PM »
How about Old Head as an example? 

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 11:25:48 AM »
Limitations sometimes inspire creativite solutions. That's a way that a poor site might add to the golf - by getting into the head of the architect and letting them show that creativity. Of course, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat, from actually creating a site like at Bayonne, or just finding a way to fit in holes, use what's there, and create holes as necessary like at Fossil Trace. Always interesting.

Old Head is a fascinating example, Jason. I've not played it, but seen many threads on it here and have read some about it elsewhere. Is that a case of the site and the views negatively impacting the design, or is it just a spectacular site where a great course was just not built? From those who have played it, is there a significantly better course available there, in your opinion? Did the greatness of the site actually impact the design negatively? As an outsider, it seems like it would be impossible to build a course there without spectacular views, so.........if the design is not considered to be great, how much of that can actually be attributed to the site actually taking away from the golf?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2010, 11:35:08 AM »
...keeping playing times reasonable.  ...

That's BS. You're talking about saving 10 seconds. That's about the amount of time the shuttle beat me walking last time.

This is the USGA. I would really be surprised it they shuttle players. Does anyone know of a precedent of players being shuttled at an Open? And, I am not talking about a course without returning nines where they start some people on 10.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2010, 11:36:42 AM »
How about Old Head as an example? 

Tom Doak has said there is only good land for 9 holes there. Therefore, it doesn't seem to be a site that qualifies.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2010, 12:47:41 PM »
Old Head is a fascinating example, Jason. I've not played it, but seen many threads on it here and have read some about it elsewhere. Is that a case of the site and the views negatively impacting the design, or is it just a spectacular site where a great course was just not built? From those who have played it, is there a significantly better course available there, in your opinion? Did the greatness of the site actually impact the design negatively? As an outsider, it seems like it would be impossible to build a course there without spectacular views, so.........if the design is not considered to be great, how much of that can actually be attributed to the site actually taking away from the golf?

Kirk:

In general, I think it is a spactacular site where a great course was not built.  The only reason I think the site might have taken away from the design is that the cliffs are so dangerous, I think the designer set up the holes to discourage play near the cliffs.  This hole is an example - the best approach is from the right side of the fairway.  The tee is to the left of the picture and the fairway bunkers are far to the right of the cliffs.



I would be surprised if there was inadequate land to build a great course.  It did not feel cramped to me.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 12:51:48 PM by Jason Topp »

James Duncan

Re: Does a good site ever take away from the golf?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2010, 05:35:10 PM »
Don,

If you think about some of the flatter older courses that have had a significant impact on the development of the game, such as Musselburgh, TOC, Royal Worlington & Newmarket, Garden City, and so on -- there's no question we've moved away from using the types of properties these courses have. Sites that are generally selected today are much more dramatic, have far more elevation change, and there is more emphasis on the "wow" factor. If you have a spectacular site with dramatic features then you'll want to use them. It's human nature and, by extension, landscape architecture.

In my experience it is not that architects are misguided in their use of the most attractive visual aspects of a property, at the expense of contours. It is more that the types of sites that are spectacular, generally speaking, lend themselves less well to the creation of the smaller-scaled features that are the hallmark of genuine golf. A four-foot ridge at Musselburgh impacts play. The same feature introduced on a tee shot with 100 feet of elevation change just disappears.

On the flip side I believe an attractive backdrop can actually help make flattish ground and smaller contours palatable to the "retail golfer". A site on the west coast of Ireland may serve as an illustration. Renaissance was going to build one course there, C&C another. It may happen some day. A number of holes on the C&C course had very subtle contours (virtually flat) which, taken alone, would have been less than compelling. The "wow" factor, however, was provided in spades by the towering sand dunes that surrounded the flattish ground, and the lovely views in general. Because of the views we were free to look for the most attractive settings and focus on the smaller contours.

To your question about whether "better" golf is sometimes passed up in pursuit of better visuals, in my experience you're always making a judgment between the merits of an isolated feature vs. the bigpicture. Often there are features on a property you'd like to use but can't justify using considering what you'd be giving up to do so -- a la Tom's comments about the ocean holes at PD.

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