The National GC, Australia (Moonah and Ocean)

[Shane Gurnett]

I was down at the National yesterday and played the Moonah (Norman) course for the second time. I've also been around the Ocean a couple of times.

Now I know the Moonah has been critically acclaimed and to my eye its a decent course, but I'm finding it hard to get excitied by it all. Certainly in my opinion its not living up to the massive wraps that have been put on it. Is it the Norman factor thats propping it up? Or will it be another that has stormed onto the scene in a wave of glory, only to steadily fall from favour with the passage of time (ala Hope Island, Sanctuary Cove, Joondalup, Coolum etc).

A few observations:

1. The greenside bunkering, whilst visually appealling on many holes, seem to be set well back from a lot of the greens, and are thus not really in play.
2. Length is a telling factor at this place, but where is the great short par four? The 9th at 316m is as close as it gets but its not a risk reward hole, rather a layup and a wedge.
3. The par threes are an unspectauclar bunch at best, and
4. The par fives again just didn't do it for me.

I cant think of a standout hole, other than those that rely on sheer length to get their point across, such as 16.

On the plus side, the greens, whilst overly large in a lot of cases, at least will accept a running shot most of the time. This I think is the biggest difference to the Ocean (apart fom the style of bunkering) that sets the courses apart. I think the Moonah works much better than the Ocean (especially in th wind), but thats not to say its a significanlty better track.

Am I missing somehting here?

[Chris Kane]

Shane,

I'm havn't played the Moonah yet, but will be doing so next week, therefore allowing me to participate on this thread properly.

I have on tape a copy of "Out of the Rough - The Making of a Golf Course", a documentary which shows the design and construction of the two courses.  if you havn't seen it you're welcome to borrow it.  

The 9th was an afterthought, because lawyers for The National advised that the original 9th, which crossed the par-3 13th, left the club open to liability in the event of injury to golfers.  The club requested that Norman change the design.

[David_Elvins]

Shane,

I agree,  not much more to add.

How is the course set up now?  Is there still long rough lining the fairways?  I heard they had cut it back a bit.

[Shane Gurnett]

David

Much of the knee/waist high rough has been cut back and allowed to die off. The contrast between fairway and rough now is quite striking and looks good.

I was also able to complete the whole 18 with the same ball, which I was happy about. Unlike the previous time when a half dozen or so were sent (just) into the heather and never seen again.

Chris I've seen the video so you can happily tape over it if you wish.

Shane

[Andrew Presnell]

Shane your comments re both courses are well founded.

Other than the absence of quality short par 4's (which nearly all these new Aussie courses seem to lack) the course certainly has some memorable holes.

However do playability and enjoyability for the average member score rankings points? Perhaps the reason I'm not a member is that on a week to week basis I don't enjoy steep walks up and down 400+ metre holes, particularly towards the end of the round. Also I don't want my golf game to be brutally tested by such a difficult course and the often harsh, exposed conditions each Sat morning.

On a related point, apparently the field sizes at the Heritage (new Aust Nicklaus course) have fallen away recently. One theory behind this is that Members who hold a membership at Victoria or Yarra Yarra as well as Heritage seem to favour their sandbelt club for their weekly game and their new club for more occasional rounds or to take visitors down for a treat. Perhaps the sandbelt golf experience is more intimate and less taxing one on a week to week basis?

It will be interesting to see how these courses stand the test of time. As Bob Rotella says in one of his books, the average golf handicap has not measurably changed in the last 15 years to warrant making courses longer or harder for the average player. The obvious question then is: Are we building these tracks for Members (who play 99% of the rounds there) or Professionals (1% of rounds)?

[Brian Walshe]

Shane,

Looks like Justin and I are going to have to drag you down to the Moonah and re-educate you.

A couple of points.  The bunkers on 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,15,16,17 and 18 are all set right up against the greens.  All are very much in play, I know I've spent a lot of time in them.  

There is no really short 300m risk reward hole and perhaps that is a weakness.  9 I don't mind if only because it plays so differently depending on the wind but it's not 10 RM West.  

We'll have to agree to disagree on the par 3's.  I really like 5, 8 and 17.  I'm not a fan of 13, I think the green has a little too much movement for a blind tee shot.  The good thing about the par 3's is how different each one is.    

We'll really disagree on the 5's.  I think 2 is the best hole out of all 54 down there.  There are just so many options on how you play the hole and it is the most subtle of all the holes down there.  7 and 15 are both great par 5's that require a good tee shot and then present you with a few questions to answer on your second. You really need to think your way thru both.  12 suffers from a bland 2nd shot where there is so much width and so little definition that it's pretty boring.

As for standout holes, try 11,17 or 4 for a start.

I think the greens complexes on the Moonah are the best I've seen built in the last 20 years.  There is a bit of movement without it being silly and they are big enough to allow you a reasonable target when it blows.  The 10th green to me is just a classic.  There are 3 very different pin positions.  front, back left and back right.  All require very different shots in.  

I'd play probably 80% of my golf down there on the Moonah, occassionally on the Old Course and only if I have to on the Ocean.

Brian

[Shane Gurnett]

Interesting to see the polarised views on the Moonah, which is why I put this post up in the first place. Its seems you either love it, or just dont get excited by it. Maybe you have to play there a lot to appreciate it. But with 6576 tough metres and 5 hour rounds the norm (every time i've been there), I'll have to keep my visits to special occasions only.

Still not sure about those bunkers Brian, but I'll have a closer look next time.

Shane

[Brian Walshe]

Chris,

What did you think?

[Chris Kane]

Brian,

While reading what I have to say, please keep in mind that I have only played it once, therefore only experiencing each hole with one direction of wind.

We played from the blue tees (6192), and yesterday there wasn't too much wind.  Of course, I don't have anything to measure that by.

Par 3's I can't say I got very excited by the group as a whole, although I thought 8 was very good.  

After seeing the video, I was looking forward to played 13, as I particularly liked the concept they had talked about during construction.  But I was disappointed with the result.

17 is another interesting concept, but I didn't like how it turned out.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't like having trees influence my choice of shot on a par 3.

I thought 4 was Ok, but might have benefited from being two clubs shorter IMHO.

Standout Holes  I'm leaning more towards what Shane is saying here.  If there is a standout hole it is 11, but I wouldn't agree with you on 17 or 4.  

4 is a very good hole, but it doesn't jump up at you like 11 does.  As I mentioned earlier, I don't like 17.

The conspicuous absence of a great short par 4 was a disappointment.

Of the par 5's, like you Brian I enjoyed 2, but the others weren't fantastic.

All this being said, it is a remarkable course.  It is relentless, inspiring, and bloody difficult!  Easily the best "links" course I've played, but NSW beckons in a fortnight...

Does it live up to the hype?  Maybe not, but again, I'm not yet qualified to judge.  I'll need to see this course at least once more before I make a definitive decision.

After we played, Justin took Danny Goss and myself for a walk around his beloved Ocean Course.  Worthy of separate thread - but what I will say is that some of the bunker placement is bizarre.  Particularly on 15.

Brian, Justin showed us your favourite finishing hole in golf, the 18th on the Ocean, and having heard what you think of it, I agree.

[Danny Goss]

Chris, I'm with you on the Ocean course. Can see why Brian dislikes 18 and Justin showed us some real silly things on that course.

On the Moonah......I thought it was great. Sure there are some things that don't appeal. However I thought there were some terrific holes. 2 is a beauty with plenty of options as has 15.
I also liked 4 (even though the bunker at the back got me) and 10 and 11. 17 was just too long.
None of the par three really stood out although 8 is the best.
I thought was routed well and changed direction well. All up I thoroughly enjoyed it.... especially taking a couple of dollars from fellow GCA contributers Justin and Chris!!  

[Brian Walshe]

Chris and Danny,

Course must have been good if you both enjoyed it even though you had to put up with Justin  

The thing I find about the Moonah is that the more you play it the more you find in it.  Perhaps it's just the scale of the place, with the massive dunes and views that distracts you from noticing some of the really good little things  Bob Harrison has done.

I just love 2, there are so many options and so many ways to play the hole.  4 I like because you can take on the corner, drive it a mile and leave yourself a wedge, but you lose the advantage of the bank on the right and face a green that slopes from front to back for it's first third.  Shorter and further left off the tee means you can use the bank on the right a lot more and even though it's probably 6 iron rather than the wedge it's a far easier shot.

I like the three's because they are all so different.  5 is pretty unique, 8 is good, 13 doesn't really work that well with too much movement in the green for a blind shot.  17!!!  C'mon guys, we need to get you down there and play it a few mores times.  Chris if the tree is in your line of play you must hit it left to right in a major way  

The great thing about 17 is that you can really use the slope short and left to feed the ball in, and Chris you always need to be right of that tree    If it has a an issue perhaps the green falls too much away middle right.  Played it with a former US Mid-Amateur Champ a few weeks ago when it was howling down wind.  We all hit wedges from about 160m and let it roll up, he just couldn't believe it.

No comment on the Ocean, as the saying goes, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

[Chris Kane]

Danny and Brian,

Please don't interpret what I said about Moonah as only criticism - it is fantastic.

We tend to get very picky when playing the best courses - witness how some of the sandbelts have been ripped to shreds.

I have no doubt it is a course that grows on you.  I know I will enjoy it much more the second time round because I'll know where to hit.  When you're hitting into greens where you can't see the surface, and therefore don't know what's going on, it gets very tiring and frustrating.

I don't like 17, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.  Something about it just didn't work for me.

I can't see it falling so drammatically from favour in the manner of Hope Island, Joondalup etc., but it will be very interesting to see how it holds up in the years to come, as the novelty wears off.

[Justin_Ryan]

It is interesting that nobody has had any comment to make on the third hole on the Moonah.  I have had it put to me that this is the best hole on the course, and I quite possibly agree.  A ridge running across the fairway rewards the drive hit left with a shorter shot whilst punishing the shot hit right or not long enough with a longer second shot.  The green is like no other on the course, set down in the dunes with no bunkers.  The tightly mown surfaces around the green allow for a multitude of shots to be played to the pin.  This represents a marked contrast to many of the greens which are sitting up on ledges.

I also think it is a shame that neither Norman nor TWP could find a great sub-300 metre par four on the entire site.  This is a site that is full of them, but both appear to have taken a length at all costs approach.  Similarly, the absence of a great par three from these courses (let alone a short one) also disappoints me.  

Interestingly, many of the older members (possibly most) prefer the original RTJ jr course.  Now maybe I'm prematurely balding, but I agree with them.  It is easily the most fun to play of the three courses, as well as demanding more in terms of strategy and imagination.  Plus in terms of a visual spectacle, it leaves the other two in the shade.

[Brian Walshe]

Justin,

I agree on the 3rd at the Moonah.  Great hole and when the pin is back and left the slope on the left is great fun to use.  Tough green to read hitting into as its very deep.  As for it sitting in amongst the dunes so does the under appreciated 17th....

The old course, yep its a hoot to play.  I just thing a few times it asks just too much.  The 2nd into 1 when it's on the front, right on 2, when the pin is back left on 4, left on 15 (the only impossible shot on the course) and the tee shot on 16 for most people.  The old course is the best for the majority of members as it's substantially shorter off the blues than either of the other two.

I agree about the short par 4, but my guess is that the 300m par 4 of 10 years ago is now the 330m par 4.

Brian

[Mike Clayton]

Brian
I think every great short 4 in Melbourne is still great because they are about precision and decisions -not length
eg. 10 RMW.3 KH, 15 RME, 15 VIC, 4 Woodlands and even 13 at Portsea plays like these more famous holes
10 years and modern equipment have not hurt these holes at all in fact maybe they are more dangerous because they are just that little bit more tempting.

[Peter Goss]

What was the consensus on the routing of both courses and what were the opinions on the aesthetics of the new clubhouse ?

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

Fair line-up of holes you just named  

I can't argue about most although there are a couple that I think are much more reachable today than they were 10 years ago when I was a lot fitter and a bit stronger and so tempt me to have a go a little more.  10 RM W is just my favourite hole end of story, but I've never been silly or brave enough to go at it.  Difference is the shot to the right is now a 3 or 4 iron and not a 3 wood.  KH 3, well I had a dip the other day, and I just think it's in range more than in the past.

A question for you.  What do you play off the tee on those holes today vs 10 or even 20 years ago?  My guess is that you are at least two clubs less and that makes a big difference in terms of precision.  When you are playing for a living I think you'd be happier being precise with a 3 iron in the hand rather than 3 wood.

Peter,

Until the grass grows in around and on the clubhouse I don't think you can comment.

As for the routing, 9 on the Ocean is a tough start particularly into the wind so 1 would be nicer but 18 is  .  14, 15, 16 is a tough start on the Old course.  On the other hand I think 13 is a good finishing hole.  It is one of those holes that really rewards good shots and just destroys bad ones.  Not much difference on the Moonah.

Brian

[MikeClayton]

Brian
10W still is a 2 iron with no wind for me and most others and into you still need a 3 wood -maybe its a 3 or a 4 for Ernie and the like but it really seems the same to me and its the tiny changes in the wind and the temprature that determines the shot.The time of the year makes the hole change to.

15 at Victoria seems to be more reachable now -it has certainly changed more but its more dangerous when its tempting -at least for me. Same at 3 at KH.

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

You probably play 10 W from a little further back than I normally do  .  I take it you now have given the beloved Tour Balata away (I remember you wrote a great article in the Sunday Age (?) years ago on "rocks" vs soft balls)  in favour of something a little more modern.  What difference has that made to the distance you hit say a 2 iron?

Nice looking land way over to the left of 7 and 15 on the Moonah by the way.

Brian

[Justin_Ryan]

Peter
I can't say I get terribly excited by the routing of either of the new courses.  All bar two holes of the Ocean course are roughly parallel, which would seem to me to be less than ideal to me considering how windy it gets.  The fact that they haven't really been able to create one memorable hole for the right reasons (except 1) suggests to me they might have done better.  The fact that 1 is memorable is a sad indictment on the quality of their work, as the lower road of the split fairway came at the expense of a useable practice fairway.  The fact that they could not even provide a functional practice facility when undertaking work at a club of this stature is scandalously incompetent at best in my opinion.  Paradoxically some good may come of it however, in that it will assist the club in pushing forward the proposed three new courses and "first class practice facility".  Having said all that, I would be happy to take you out for a game on it some day.  Maybe we could even convince Brian Walshe to step onto it as well.

The Moonah is roughly in a horseshoe shape, so you cop winds from all directions.  I do think that Greg Norman could have provided for a finishing stretch which is a bit less taxing.  Off the back tees (where the medal is played from) we finish with a 422 metre par four, a 524 metre par five, a 447 metre par four (which plays uphill, with a blind second show to a narrowing fairway for the vast majority of players), a 204 metre par three with a nice easy 412 metre par four to finish.  The last three holes especially are susceptible to playing straight into the wind, and are simply too hard for most players with a handicap higher than about four (unless your name is Brian Walshe, who probably should play off four).  Of course, the higher handicappers are usually demoralised before they get that far.

Brian
17 Moonah doesn't sit amongst the dunes as much as 3, and is especially more open on the right (and left for that matter, near the trees that get in Chris's way).  I also cannot believe that you questioned the wisdom of Mike Clayton.  That is clearly considered heresy on this site  

[Brian Walshe]

Peter,

What Justin meant to say was given the wind blows 90% of the time from either one of two opposite directions, routing the course so the holes are either downwind or into it isn't a bad idea.    Correct Justin  

I've played both courses when the wind has been howling across you on most holes and I found it almost impossible.

The Moonah has a big finish.  14 thru 18 are long and very tough.  I'm not too fussed about the length off the black tees, but perhaps shortening the blue tees on 16 and 18 might make life more pleasant for most people.  Ignore Justin's comments on my golf, we are playing off the dreaded Blacks on the Moonah next Saturday and I think he's just trying to get some better odds.

Justin

I'd NEVER question Mike's wisdom before I get the magic invite to Ranfurlie.  

[Justin_Ryan]

Brian
On the routing of the Ocean, I meant that you will usually be affected by the wind in only two ways, often into and behind, whereas on the Moonah you will get it from all directions.  Of course I am still perplexed as to how they routed the course and somehow failed to leave enough room for the practice fairway.

And don't forget, I beat you up the top, and I'll beat you down the bottom.

[Mike Clayton]

Ranfurlie opens next weekend and I spoke to Chris Kane about organizing a day there after easter
All welcome assuming the club dont have a problem.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mike

A game at Ranfurlie sounds like a fine idea. How has the course come up thus far? Has it matched yours, and the clubs expectations, or is it too early to call?

Shane

[NicP]

I played with one of the ground staff from the Ocean course over the weekend and was interested to get his opinion on the design. Basically he said that TWP shouldn't be given another job as all the staff have done since groundbreaking is fix up there mistakes. He was pretty animated about the fact as well. Also mentioned that the club are less than impressed with the end result.

To all the Melbourne guys. Chris Kane has been in contact with me regarding a get together at Mike's new course at some stage in the near future. Could I propose the 12th. of May as the date? All those interested, or the ones with a more suitable date, can email me here or at nicolasphipps@hotmail.com.