Rock Creek = World 100?

[Steve_Roths]

Just looked at the bottom part of the World 100 list and was thinking about whether Rock Creek would find its way onto the next list.  Would you rank it above say a Spyglass?

[Big Pete]

Syglass has some really good holes , but my vote would be Rock Creek by a landslide
I had the pleasure of spending a few days playing Rock Creek in 2008 , and really rate it .
At this stage I would place it in the top 5 by Tom and his Renaissance men  , and one of the most fun courses I have ever played

[Matt_Ward]

For the latter part of the 20 century Spyglass was a joy to play -- one of the best RTJ courses.

When held against Rock Creek -- there is only two words I can say -- no contest.

Anyone -- and I do mean anyone -- who doesn't see Rock Creek as a top 50 USA course must be walking around in a fog.

As much ink as places like Pac Dunes and Ballyneal rightly get -- and I really like the CO layout -- Rock Creek is a gem. My only down note about it (a minor defect) is the so-so 18th hole -- it's a good hole but when you factor in the many great and near great holes you play there it's a small aside to a day of tour de force golf.

[Tom_Doak]

My own feeling is that Rock Creek is right up there with the best courses we've done ... and a great place to go and visit, even putting aside the golf.

However, some of the GOLF Magazine panelists who came to the Renaissance Cup were lukewarm about it.  I was really surprised to hear that; but in hindsight, it is a much more difficult course than Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal, so I'd guess it does not appeal to exactly the same people who are such big fans of those.

The irony is that by the GOLF DIGEST definition of what a great course is, I would think it would probably rate as my best ... but not if they never get anyone up there to see it.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Rock Creek would easily be Top 50 in the World, at least for me. I have it ranked #5 on my personal list and it does come in ahead of Spyglass and Ballyneal on my list although both of those are very good too. I do think its a better fit for the Digest criteria than Ballyneal given the resistance to scoring category, but I also think the challenge gives it a better balance between the long game and short game which is important to me. While I would put Ballyneal and Spyglass comfortably in the US Top 100, I'd have Rock Creek in the Top 15.

[Jonathan Cummings]

RCCC will make all lists - it's that good.  What's more, it could be easily argued that the Renaissance guys have the top three courses in the the entire NW quarter of the country (OM, PD, and RCCC).

[Craig Sweet]

Personally, I like the idea that this amazing golf course is hidden away in the foothills of the Rockies and the raters can't seem to find their way up here to play it. Let the Legend grow...

Rock Creek is a very difficult... rockin' and rollin' good time...over an amazing piece of ground.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Spyglass "comfortably" in your top 100.

Really ?

[Alan Carter]

Tom, I had the pleasure of attending that Renaissance Cup and as you said it was very interesting to hear the comments that came from everyone. 

Rock Creek is a wonderful golf course that in my opinion does an amazing job of being fair and yet creates wonderful options and challenges that can be misinterpreted as being difficult.  There are without question a few holes out there that seperate the men from the boys, but I certainly don't recall players losing a lot of golf balls or for that matter even looking for a ton golf balls.  If you hit a really bad shot, well that's a different story and you deserve the result.  I more remember seeing players struggle with certain types shots that they were required to hit, but in many cases that was because they were just not used to that type of golf or likely more simply, the average player struggles when they don't have a level lie.  There are not a whole lot of those at Rock Creek! 

I would suggest that the better the player or the more talented the player, the more they would like RCCC! 

It's a very cool place and I know I certainly would never get tired of playing that golf course.



 

[Adam Clayman]

Matt. Andy played well at Ballyneal with just a few clubs, talk about a no win criteria?  So he gives it a low resistance to scoring grade. He'd be right if the course record weren't still is so very high, especially after how many great players have tried. Also if he knew the fact that everyone plays better with only a few clubs, anywhere.  

[Andy Troeger]

Matt. Andy played well at Ballyneal with just a few clubs, talk about a no win criteria?  So he gives it a low resistance to scoring grade. He'd be right if the course record weren't still is so very high, especially after how many great players have tried. Also if he knew the fact that everyone plays better with only a few clubs, anywhere.  

Adam,
I gave the course about a 7 for resistance to scoring which is hardly low. It may be a hard course to go low on, but compared to most of the greats its a hard course to go high on too. And I did just fine the first round with all my clubs too--if you have a good short game you'll score well at Ballyneal and if you don't then I suppose you won't, but if you don't have a good short game you won't score well most places.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Spyglass "comfortably" in your top 100.

Really ?

Yep...probably top 50. A lot of people that find it fashionable to rip Spyglass, but I don't really see what's not to like. Its a difficult course, but I found it engaging. Rock Creek is better.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, Thanx for clarifying that. I'll have to give some thought to courses that you can go high on. I've never thought about it in that way before. At first blush, it sounds like a guaranteed fun factor variable.

I know Spyglass better than most and I think it is better than what many people intimate, too. But for every one of those, there are thousands who feel differently. Top Fifty? I'm not really a personal ranker. It was probably easier for it to be there 10 years ago, but with so many thoughtful designs being put out by true craftsmen, it's getting pushed down the ladder, no doubt.

I do have one small issue, that makes me think poorly of the management. Although I feel I can separate those feelings from the architecture. Back when Bill Seidel was made head pro, he was tasked with getting Spy into the top ten on the magazines lists. It turned out well for the course, as it had some major drainage issues, mitigated, but, there was also some architectural changes that IMO, did not improve the course, it only made it prettier. As though raters are so stupid that they could be so affected by some peripheral aesthetic.  sheesh

[Tom_Doak]

It may be a hard course to go low on, but compared to most of the greats its a hard course to go high on too.

Andy:

You can go high at Ballyneal pretty easily, if you are stubborn about what kinds of shots to play around the greens.  Or if you are driving it badly.  Or, if the wind blows.

But in general, I am trying to build courses where it is hard to go low, but it's not hard for an average player to shoot around his handicap, which means a good player won't often go high.

I am curious if "going high" is actually part of the definition of "Resistance to Scoring" according to GOLF DIGEST or not.  I always understood that it wasn't, that it was only about going low and not about being hard for the average player ... although I've always thought the rankings reflect some of the latter, too.  Have you ever asked Ron Whitten about that?  Do you mind if I ask him?

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
I wish we could use a "fun" factor in the rankings. I do in my personal list which is different from the ratings I submit for the magazine. Ballyneal admittedly is a course that does a little better with that than just basing it on the Digest criteria. I've only played Spyglass once a couple of years ago and admittedly my guess for putting it around #50 is that I have it around #20 on my list and I've played 44 of the top 100. Just a guess admittedly...

Tom,
That's a good question and I don't know how Ron would answer that. Neither is specifically included in the actual definition--its just difficulty while still being fair for the scratch/low handicap player from the back tees. You are welcome to ask and I would be curious to see the answer. I include both, but since the Digest system is based on strong amateur players and not the pros I'm admittedly not interested in whether someone could go shoot 62 as much as what a scratch golfer could shoot. That whole "while still being fair" bit opens up another can of worms.

I believe a good player could go high at Ballyneal--especially around the greens or if the wind blows. Wind is a tough variable to me for resistance to scoring--you have to take into account sites like Ballyneal and Bandon where the wind is a "normal" factor, but at the same time you can't just say that its a 9 because its hard in the wind. Perhaps its an easier course for me because I stink at the lob and tend to chip along the ground or putt anyway because its safer--having those shots at Ballyneal (or Rock Creek) comes in handy.

[Jeff Doerr]

I'd say easy top 100 - just brilliant routing.

[Matt_Ward]

What's interesting about the discussion Rock Creek v Ballyneal - is that the former is the more demanding layout without the inroduction of heavy winds which the CO course can certainly have from time to time.

I like the "edge" that Rock Creek provides and unlike other Doak courses where the strength often tips to the par-3 and par-5 holes -- it is the collection of the par-4 holes -- their variety and intensity -- that makes the day for me at Rock Creek.

What's really surprisiing to me is how an isolated course like Sand Hills gets so much fanfare -- and did so right from the get-go -- the rise up the ladder for Rock Creek has been a slower one. Either the panelists are sleeping or those who have been there need to remove the blind fold.

Andy:

Spyglass is a wonderful 1960's design that's been tweaked as Adam mentioned. The range and diversity of newer courses in the last 20-25 years has clearly produced some courses that are clealy better in my mind. For example, Black Mesa has the better overall design than Spyglass. The CA layout benefits from its general location and proximity to PB and CP.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I have Black Mesa ahead of Spyglass, although not by much. I don't believe the location influences Spyglass that much overall--you have some that will bump it up by association and others that might bump it down based on the comparison to its neighbors. I think it stands on its own just fine.

To throw this out there, the only modern course I have as the equal of Rock Creek is Pete Dye's The Golf Club in Ohio. I haven't really figured out if I like one better than the other. I've only seen three of the top 10 modern, however.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Spyglass benefited from the Crosby event and from having CP and PB immediately nearby so that a fan base could be developed there.

I have always believed that the routing at Spyglass got it backwards -- RTJ needed to highlight the close proximity of the ocean site holes towards the end of the round -- not at the beginning and then be stuck in the forest as is the case.

Black Mesa has no real location -- no tournament exposure and it's got easily the best combination of holes when held against Spyglass. RTJ should be saluted for Spyglass but the modern era of golf design has produced so many solid and even more deserving of candidates in my mind.

[Tim_Weiman]

Steve,

Truthfully, I would not rank Rock Creek as high as some here have done , perhaps because I found the "experience" of the place a bit overwhelming,especially the scale of the property.

Don't know if it is a valid architectural criticism, but at Ballyneal I feel like I am on a golf course whereas with Rock Creek I felt more like I was visiting an amazing place.

For perspective, I prefer St Andrews Beach over Tom's two other courses Down Under (Barnbougle and Cape Kidnappers).

[Jim Franklin]

So if you picked up Pine Valley and moved it to Disneyworld or for that matter, Deer Lodge,, it's disqualified in your view, Tim?

Clearly, in my view, Rock Creek belongs at the high end of any list of "Top X" anything, anywhere, as judged by anybody.
I haven't played anyplace that I enjoyed more.  In purely golf terms, it's as good as golf gets, in my view - regardless of the wonderfulness of the "experience."

Donald Steele's golfing daydreams may revolve around Rye ... and so do a number of mine ... But I have more of them about Rock Creek. I can't get a lot of those holes out of my head.       

Well said, couldn't agree more.

Spyglass is not Top 50 and is barely in my Top 100. Ballyneal is Top 20 and Rock Creek is Top 5. Lock this thread.

[Matt_Ward]

The idea that Shivas and I is amazing.

Stop the presses.

Rock Creek is solid -- although I find the 18th hole a letdown it's still a good hole.

Spyglass Hill is a fine layout but the bar for great courses is rising and some of the modern ones have done that -- Rock Creek is one of them. Frankly, I can make a case that Rock Creek is a more demanding tee-to-green course than either Pac Dunes or Ballyneal.

[Jim Franklin]

Frankly, I can make a case that Rock Creek is a more demanding tee-to-green course than either Pac Dunes or Ballyneal.

If I am not mistaken, Mr Doak would agree with you.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue I have with many of the Doak groupies is that they wince at courses that up the ante in terms of shot demands. I am amused that some tag Rock Creek as being a bit too demanding when held against some of this other courses. I find Rock Creek to be a better layout than a few of his other desgns simply because he has not held the shot demands back and his collective par-4 holes at Rock Creek are the strength of the course to me.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I would agree with you that Rock Creek is more demanding than Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.  A big part of the reason for that is that our client, Bill Foley, is a better player than Mike Keiser or Jim O'Neal.  Everyone wants a course that's geared to their own game [including you!], but those who pony up the funds are more likely than others to have it their way.

I don't necessarily agree that my more demanding courses are automatically my better courses ... I just don't have biases as far as that goes, partly because I have to consider each design with a client in mind.  But, I would say that Rock Creek is right up there with the best of my work, any way you want to slice it, and at least nobody can dismiss it as being because of an ocean view.