[Patrick_Mucci]

Zach,

If the golfer can't reach the greens in regulation, shouldn't he be playing from more forward tees ?

Is that the key to an enjoyable challenge, being able to reach most of the greens in regulation ?

[Mark Pearce]

I'm a (very) average golfer.  I've played two of these (Wolf Run and Yale).  Wolf Run was harder, tee to green and Yale on the greens but both were a blast to play, even if I didn't score well.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I've played most on the list.  They missed the hardest of them all maybe because it is so new.  TPC Potomac is the most difficult course of 1050 courses I've ever played.....in no wind and not from the back tees.  Fay just played there and said they could host the Open today without changing a thing.  From the back tees and windy - God forbid.  The senior tour championship will be played at Potomac 4-10Oct.  I hope these guys are not embarrassed.

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's take the average golfer from the middle tees and the better golfer from the tips...I have played Kaluhyat at Turning Stone from the tips and it is much more difficult than Atunyote (the PGA Tour and Notah Begay Charity Event course) and Shenandoah.  I have played Saratoga National (Roger Rulewich) from the tips and it, too, is a bitch from the way-back.  I want to play Shattuck, since I hear that it is truly unfair...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

At the "name" courses, the better golfer can't handle the tips.

The elite and PGA Tour Pros can.

[Ronald Montesano]

Agreed, Patrick...as my friend and poster Kevin Lynch likes to say, the visual hazard is the most frightening for the average golfer, which is why a Tot Hill or a Tobacco Road might get some play on these lists.  Even our average golfers on this forum, I imagine, are savvy enough to sniff out the proper route (or proper tee decks) to make their way around any golf course...except, of course, on the day you just want to hit driver, no matter what!!

[Adam Clayman]

Great to see the leader in Sports broadcasting valuing the important aspects of gca.

[Mike Hamilton]

I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list. 

#49 doesn't belong either. What makes Tobacco Road so hard? Other than the time I played with Ed Getka where the temps were hovering in the mid-40's and I hadn't played golf in about 3 months, I have never shot over 80, and I have never played worth crap. The last pro-am they had, the winner shot 65, and none of the really good Section professionals were at the event. The way that course is set up on a day to day basis is not hard. Now, they firm up those greens and run them at about 11-12 speeds, well, thats a different story. But the way it is set up, that course is not hard. A good player should be at least 4 under on the par 5's and 17 is an almost given birdie. So, thats about 5 under and the rest of the holes aren't that hard.

Tot Hill Farm is a little different, they can put out some really jacked up pins, but for the most part, the hardest holes out there are 9 and 10, and 10 is only hard if played from the tees right behind #9 green where you have to hit across the road. Other than that, whats so hard? I think I shot 75 or 76 and didn't play that great.

Moose Run, same deal. Yeah, its 7600 or so yards long (might be 7800, I don't remember) but it really doesn't feel that long. And the greens are all very soft because of the short growing season. Now if you intend to putt everything out exactly according to the rules, I could see someone hitting every green in regulation and shooting over 100 because the greens are in poor shape, at least they were when I was there, and that was in late June. But as far as the actual layout goes and the green complexes, its not a difficult course. And it doesn't have the potential for big numbers for the most part; Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm do have those potentials, TR moreso.

Oh, and to answer one of the original questions, yes, all three of the courses that I listed above are playable on a daily basis.

Have to agree with John.  I'm average at best, have played all the Strantz publics ex True Blue, and I think TR might be the easiest. 

RNK at #16, even played at similar length as the back tees at TR and THF (6500) is much harder.  The angles are tougher, more forced carries, at least as many blind shots, and a few pretty tough holes.  The 7th is a tough three given the narrow green and trouble all around, and 16 is one of the toughest fours I've played.

From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

I think you and/or your friend Kevin is right about the visual hazard.

But, with the advent of modern day technology, that's an illusion that's harder and harder to pull off.

The first time I played Bayonne, I stepped up onto the tee on # 4 and was intimidated.
It looked like a bowling alley with deep fescue for gutter lanes and beyond.
The wind was blowing, the left flank horizon obscured by dunes of tall grass, ditto the right side.
Now, I'm a fairly straight and consistent driver, but, when I stood on that tee and searched for my aiming point in the fairway and beyond, I was intimidated.

On subsequent play, while the visual is still there, I now know that there's tons of room right, behind an obscuring dune.

But, today, the tech oriented golfer can just pull out his "device" and see a bird's eye view of the entire hole, allowing him to override the visual deception that the architect was so successful at.

Golf and golf course architecture lose out when artificial devices are permited.

[PCCraig]

Fine list I guess...but in the end of the day they are all pretty hard if you're playing the tips and aren't a great golfer. I generally play "hard" courses pretty well, but I don't understand the 15 handicapper when he or she insists on playing very hard courses consistently as I don't find much fun in that.

Pat Mucci - I agree that if a golfer can't hit the majority of the par-4's on a course he's playing the wrong tees.

[Nick Campanelli]

The Shattuck could probably be higher on this list.  Its target golf on every shot for 18 holes with little room for bailout. 

The one good thing about the place.....after losing a dozen balls on the front nine, the incredible scenery will still be there to enjoy and lift your spirits.        

43. THE SHATTUCK GOLF CLUB
JAFFREY / N.H. / 6,764 YARDS / PAR 71
It once boasted the highest Slope in New England. It still features the most bridges over wetlands: 33 in 18 holes. Get your ball retriever regripped before you play.

[Alan Gard]

Overall a very eclectic list.  It's weird to see some of these courses mentioned in the same list.

There are a couple of courses on the list that were built on land hardly suited for golf courses.  For example, Ko'olau was basically carved out of rainforest.  As was noted, the setting is unbelievable.  It feels like you are on the set of 'Lost' (and you probably are given where it was filmed).  And "lost" is the appropriate theme there.  If you hit it solid and straight the course is not that hard.  But everything is a carry and anything off the fairway is lost.  

The Shattuck is another course that fits the bill of being built likely where golf wasn't meant to be played...on a mountainside swamp.  At one point the course was under new management (I think this has happened several times) and when we walked to the back tees we were strongly urged to move up a set.  I think they felt they lost business because many people didn't enjoy the difficulty.  To me the only draw of playing there is because it is hard with tight landing areas and forced carries.  There's something about trying to rise to the challenge of holes like #5, the 600 yard (and it plays all of that as the turf is often soft) with the postage stamp size green guarded in front by a creek and in back by sheer rock even if that isn't really how golf was meant to be played.

I was really surpised to see Pinehurst #2 on the list.  When your caddy makes you empty your bag of all but a sleeve of golf balls before he'll carry your bag (and despite my protests of how wild I hit it), that doesn't scream ridiculously difficult.  The green complexes are tough, certainly, but that course didn't make me feel beat up the way many others have.  Yale was another surprise to me.  While not easy, I've usually been able to play okay there (for my skill level anyway).

It's just interesting to me how much diversity there is in what people consider "difficult".

[PCCraig]

Fine list I guess...but in the end of the day they are all pretty hard if you're playing the tips and aren't a great golfer. I generally play "hard" courses pretty well, but I don't understand the 15 handicapper when he or she insists on playing very hard courses consistently as I don't find much fun in that.

Pat Mucci - I agree that if a golfer can't hit the majority of the par-4's on a course he's playing the wrong tees.

[Jud_T]

I think Pinehurst #2 is a bit surprising here.  I could play that course every day.  Although I have seen at least 2 very good players walk off a couple of those greens near tears....

[Paul OConnor]

"Is that the key to an enjoyable challenge, being able to reach most of the greens in regulation ?"

Disagree with that one.  I find it more enjoyable on the 460+ par fours to play short to an easy chip and a 4-8 foot par putt as I do trying to hit the green.   The fun and challenge is to leave the approach and the chip in positions where the next shot is easier.   The singular focus on hitting the green all the time removes much of the creativity of managing the course's defenses, and making par with a wedge and putter. 

Plus holing out the chip for birdie is way more fun than a birdie putt, and completely demoralizing to the long hitter opponents who hit seven iron into the green, only to two putt for par. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I once de-greened a putt into the bunker on 5, and the caddy said he knew I was going to do that.  I asked when and he replied "when you took your putter back more than 1/2".  Courses that are firm and with fast greens and require local knowledge are as tough (when a resort) as brutes, aren't they?

P2 is a course that can cut you and you don't even know you are bleeding.

[JNC Lyon]

Oak Hill (East), anyone?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oak Hill (East), anyone?

There are so many courses that could nearly make this kind of list that you could include to expand it to 500 if you wanted.

[Doug Ralston]

I think it is worth noting that, while the PGA Tour still stops at Oakmont, they will not at PGA West Stadium. They tried it once many years ago and the pros refused to go back, period. Now it is only used to torture those poor fools struggling through Q-School.

It is funny to me that a certain commercial advertising getting you a tee time uses PGA West Stadium as their example. I wonder if it is because no one else will play it more than once?

We found Tot Hill tougher than Tobacco Road, mainly because our balls spent a fair amount of time looking like pinballs on those rocks. Both are a blast to play, who cares about scores.

My favorite course still to play [Eagle Ridge, KY] has a slope of 144, with 153 front nine. I do not play it for a good score, in fact hardly keep score. It is plain fun. I imagine I would enjoy any of these courses that have reasonable short tees without long carrys and are full of 'try this' shorts. I like target golf. I don't always do well, but I mostly laugh and try it again. Tough courses? Bring it on!

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Saw the list and have to take issue with a few -- and add others that were omitted.

There is NO way Crystal Springs in Hamburg, NJ makes the list. Play the original Trump 18 from the tips and it will run circles around Crystal Springs.

Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Rd ?

Ron M, good call on Saratoga National -- played from the tips it can make a strong case to be right behind the likes of Bethpage Black in NY State.

The Medalist can easily be a top ten -- just a bear to play from the tips. Plenty of lost balls and the like waiting with the slightest hiccup.In regards to Desert Mtn -- Renegade is often mentioned but the original Geronimo and even the present Chirichua would be better calls.

Wolf Creek from Mesquite NV at #31 -- surely they jest -- even it's detractors admit it's a ballbuster of even higher status than what's listed !

I'd also place Red Ledges from UT -- it's a superb course but from the tips it's 77+ and 145+.

Rochelle Ranch is a tough layout but there's plenty of room to spray the ball around .

No way Pinehurst #2 should be included for such a specific listing.

Forget Yale -- if you need a CT course include The Stanwich -- especially when the greens are at 12+.

Stone Harbor is a good call if the original "jaws" hole were still present.


 
 

[Sean Leary]

I have played a number of these, and for my money, yard for yard I will take Prairie Dunes on a daily basis.

[Doug Ralston]

BTW, a pro a a certain Dye course was talking to me about Dye's Kampen. He claimed Dye himself said it was absurdly penal with the rough in that condition, and he had never meant it to be play in that condition at all.

Doug

[Steve Kline]

I reckon this list must be from an average golfer's PoV, but then forward tees should be the measure used.  I can see where an 18 capper would find The Road difficult.  Part of this difficulty is false espectations of relative ease due to the short yardage - I love this aspect of design.  There are an awful lot of opportunities to finish with ball in pocket.  For me, Oakland Hills or The Bear may be the toughest American courses I have played.  They are hard no matter which tees I play and neither are courses I care for.  Kiawah I didn't find overly difficult, but like a links it relies on wind to create much of the problem.  That said, I can see where an 18 capper would find it difficult.  Nearly every hole has an opportunity not to finish.  I watched an 18 capper struggle mightily around this place in good weather so...The course on the list which impresses me most is Pinehurst.  There are virtually nno opportunities to finish in pocket yet I think good, bad and indifferent golfers find the course tough.  This is its most endearing quality.  To be a championship course which is PLAYABLE (playable can still be diffiicult) for all is a remarkable feat to pull off.

Ciao

I've played the course several hundred times from a variety of tees. Almost every time I played it I was a scratch or lower handicap. I have never broken par on the course. Chipping is not my strength.

[Chris_Clouser]

I think this is a reprint of an old list from a few years ago that I saw in some magazine.  Wolf Run and Purgatory were in the same spot on the list. 

As for Purgatory, it isn't even the most difficult public course in the state in my mind.  I think the name, the stupid back tees and all the sand perpetuate that image.  I have played several courses that are "harder" like Oakland Hills, Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs. 

Kampen at Purdue might be the hardest course but that is solely due to the awful condition they keep it at all the time.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

CD with the wind whipping, the rough dense and long and the greens at 10+ will give anyone all they can handle.

By the way -- if one needs an IN course for such a list -- how bout Hulman Links from the dead back ?

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