[Brian Freeman]

I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list.  #46 is harder than the both of those combined.

I think I might be able to name at least 10 courses just in North Carolina that are tougher than TR and THF - definitely if you let me count the greater Myrtle area as well. 

[jonathan_becker]

With all the problems that many of us have with this list, at least no one is complaining about the #1 ranking.  It's pretty tough to prove that one wrong.

[Richard Choi]

Put me in the camp for Bethpage everyday crowd. While it is quite difficult, most of the trees are out of play and there is no wind to speak of on most days. Only real difficulty is the length and that can be offset by playing the correct tees. I would be absolutely happy and content to play Bethpage Black everyday.

I would rather play BB on calm day from the back tees than Pacific Dunes from green tees when it is blowing 20 to 30mph.

[CJ Carder]

From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...

There's a reason that, when they first opened, you had to provide your driver's license and handicap card before they'd even let you go back there.  Now they don't even put tee markers on those boxes.  That being said, I did have a good friend fire an even-par 72 from back there the first time he played it.  He also hits an 8-iron 170 yards, so....

[Tim Leahy]

Where is Olympic in SF? No Olympic = no credibility

[Garland Bayley]

Wonder what makes Furnace Creek hard?  The possibility of heat stroke? Dehydration?  

That's the "dead" giveaway. This is not a golf channel list, but a reprint of I think it was Golf Digest article. Furnace Creek is a relatively easy course, except of course in summer, where it presents the possibility of "death" in the valley.

The list has had a previous thread when it first came out in GD.

EDIT: I see Alex beat me to spotting this impostor.

EDIT AGAIN: I looked it up on line. This is indeed recycled GD garbage from quite awhile ago.

[John Moore II]

I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list. 

#49 doesn't belong either. What makes Tobacco Road so hard? Other than the time I played with Ed Getka where the temps were hovering in the mid-40's and I hadn't played golf in about 3 months, I have never shot over 80, and I have never played worth crap. The last pro-am they had, the winner shot 65, and none of the really good Section professionals were at the event. The way that course is set up on a day to day basis is not hard. Now, they firm up those greens and run them at about 11-12 speeds, well, thats a different story. But the way it is set up, that course is not hard. A good player should be at least 4 under on the par 5's and 17 is an almost given birdie. So, thats about 5 under and the rest of the holes aren't that hard.

Tot Hill Farm is a little different, they can put out some really jacked up pins, but for the most part, the hardest holes out there are 9 and 10, and 10 is only hard if played from the tees right behind #9 green where you have to hit across the road. Other than that, whats so hard? I think I shot 75 or 76 and didn't play that great.

Moose Run, same deal. Yeah, its 7600 or so yards long (might be 7800, I don't remember) but it really doesn't feel that long. And the greens are all very soft because of the short growing season. Now if you intend to putt everything out exactly according to the rules, I could see someone hitting every green in regulation and shooting over 100 because the greens are in poor shape, at least they were when I was there, and that was in late June. But as far as the actual layout goes and the green complexes, its not a difficult course. And it doesn't have the potential for big numbers for the most part; Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm do have those potentials, TR moreso.

Oh, and to answer one of the original questions, yes, all three of the courses that I listed above are playable on a daily basis.

Have to agree with John.  I'm average at best, have played all the Strantz publics ex True Blue, and I think TR might be the easiest. 

RNK at #16, even played at similar length as the back tees at TR and THF (6500) is much harder.  The angles are tougher, more forced carries, at least as many blind shots, and a few pretty tough holes.  The 7th is a tough three given the narrow green and trouble all around, and 16 is one of the toughest fours I've played.

From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...

I would love to "clone" Tobacco Road somewhere, but add about 1,000 yards to it. They have room to add a good amount of length out there. (depending on property owned) They could make a new back tee on #1 somewhere near the front porch of the clubhouse, same with #10. 2 could be backed up 10-15 yards. They could put a new tee on #4 over behind the 3rd green, if they own that land. 7 could be backed up 10 yards or so. 8 could go back 10-15 yards. 9 could go back a stupid long ways, probably 100 yards or more until you got to the 4th green (not really an option, the hole is mighty hard as is). 12 could be moved back who knows how far and on a harder angle. 13 could be lengthed probably 200 yards by putting a new back tee over behind the 12th green. Of course, as we've all said who knows how many times, they could build a 250+ yard par 3 in that huge space between 12 green and current 13 tee, do away with #17. 14 could be moved back probably 25 yard from the real back tees, about 75 yards from the current longest tees. 16 could be moved back into the trees somewhere and the slope beyond the fairway mowed down to flat sand so that its not literally unfair. And thats about it, but thats about 650 yards or more right there.

[A.G._Crockett]

This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd.  If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course.  But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.

But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed.  True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138.  From those tees, TB is just nasty.  Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.

That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this.  It makes Golfweek look really, really good.

[John Moore II]

This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd.  If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course.  But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.

But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed.  True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138.  From those tees, TB is just nasty.  Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.

That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this.  It makes Golfweek look really, really good.

This was originally a Golf Digest list. Not sure why ESPN decided like 3 years later to pick it up. This list has been out a long time now.

[Adam Clayman]

It must be old. No Pound Ridge?

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Good call on that front -- as you correcrlt surmised likely because the listing has been out for some time PR was not likely opened for consideration.

I would certainly add it in the mix.

The thing about PR is that unlike so many of the other courses which can be hard on the high handicap types and less so on the better players -- PR is more about the reverse. If the high handicap types play it from the front markers it is manageable.

Anyone taking it on from the tips who can't hit a driver (or comparable distance club) a minimum of 290-300 yards relatively straight all the time -- will make a mega donation with the slightest pull / push on a number of holes there.

Gents:

One other course not included that can make a better case than no less than a dozen that are already listed ...

Antler Creek in Falcon, CO -- 8,000 yards and sports a near 80 CR from the dead back. Throw in the breezes that can whip through the property and you have your hands full -- mega.

[Tim Gavrich]

This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd.  If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course.  But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.

But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed.  True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138.  From those tees, TB is just nasty.  Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.

That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this.  It makes Golfweek look really, really good.

A.G.--

Interesting that you say that about TB.  Having played TB from the tips a few times, I would actually say Caledonia is tougher in relation to par.  I'm a scratch player, so I can only comment on these courses' relative difficulties for lower handicappers.  But True Blue's fairways and greens are just so huge that even on days when I've been hitting the ball a little crooked, I still hit a lot of fairways and greens.  And I even feel like mid- and higher-handicap players, from the proper tees, can keep the ball in play on most holes (the tee shot on 6 can be tough, I'll concede, and 3 is an intimidating hole from all tees).  JMO.

[Gary Daughters]

I don't see any challenge to The Ocean Course at #1 toughest.  It's the most difficult and confounding course I have ever played, and yet I enjoyed it immensely.  It made every synapse in my being go off. 

[Keith Phillips]

"The first time I played Bayonne, I stepped up onto the tee on # 4 and was intimidated.
It looked like a bowling alley with deep fescue for gutter lanes and beyond.
The wind was blowing, the left flank horizon obscured by dunes of tall grass, ditto the right side.
Now, I'm a fairly straight and consistent driver, but, when I stood on that tee and searched for my aiming point in the fairway and beyond, I was intimidated.

On subsequent play, while the visual is still there, I now know that there's tons of room right, behind an obscuring dune."

Pat, good comment re #4 at Bayonne - I am a member and it took me a season and a half to figure out that, relative to par, 4 is one of the easiest holes at Bayonne with once one gains confidence on the tee shot - re. the point of 'hardest for whom', Bayonne is a good example of a course that plays hard for an erratic player (yours truly) but is actually quite playable for the straight hitter.

[A.G._Crockett]

This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd.  If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course.  But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.

But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed.  True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138.  From those tees, TB is just nasty.  Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.

That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this.  It makes Golfweek look really, really good.

A.G.--

Interesting that you say that about TB.  Having played TB from the tips a few times, I would actually say Caledonia is tougher in relation to par.  I'm a scratch player, so I can only comment on these courses' relative difficulties for lower handicappers.  But True Blue's fairways and greens are just so huge that even on days when I've been hitting the ball a little crooked, I still hit a lot of fairways and greens.  And I even feel like mid- and higher-handicap players, from the proper tees, can keep the ball in play on most holes (the tee shot on 6 can be tough, I'll concede, and 3 is an intimidating hole from all tees).  JMO.

Tim,
Caledonia is an interesting case.  I always come off that course thinking I should have scored better, but I never really do; I think that is one mark of a great design.  The golfer isn't overwhelmed by the difficulty at any point, but rather a stroke slips away here and there, and at the end you just feel like you should have scored better.

Consider, though, that True Blue is a full 500 yds. longer from the tips than Caledonia (or Tobacco Rd., for that matter).  For a scratch golfer, length is often not really the biggest obstacle to scoring.  But I am ALWAYS careful to tell people that are about to play TB for the first time to go to the 6500 yd. tees (which is actually the third set there) because from 6800 or 7100 it is just too difficult for the vast majority of golfers if you miss greens.  Strantz was charged with designing the Pine Valley of the South at TB, and the somewhat softer version that exists now is still very, very difficult for mid to high handicappers.  Much moreso than either Tobacco Rd. or Tot Hill Farm, IMO.  Again, I feel that Caledonia is in a different category from those three.

[Bill Brightly]

I am glad not to have any courses on their list.  But, clearly, they can't get on Sebonack.

I think Donald Trump would be annoyed that neither of the courses at Trump National are on the list. From the back tees,both should be.

Metedeconk should be as well.

[Jud_T]

Bill,
Agree completely on Metedeconk.  That place is a ballbuster.

[Anthony Gray]

  How many are top 100?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  Wolf Run is well deserved.

  Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

Does ESPN own Golf Digest, or vice versa, these days?

[Chris_Clouser]

Matt, 

I think there are a few holes on Hulman that are a bear on the front nine, but I don't think it would be that bad from the backs.  I can think of several that would tougher public courses from the tips.  The Dye Course at French Lick might be unplayable.  Kampen in the current condition is much worse.  Glendarin Hills in Angola is a newer layout that would be very difficult.  Also some places that I don't think the most of could be very difficult from the tips, and much more so than Hulman.  White Hawk in Crown Point has a fourth set of nine holes (Silver) that may be the hardest set of nine holes in the state, and that includes Wolf Run. 

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

With all the info you presented -- it amazes me to no end how The Hoosier State is just not spoken about in terms of quality golf offerings. More than just long tough courses the state has a roster of public courses that is better than Pennsy and The Empire State. Frankly, I see your public roster being better than Jersey's too for that matter.

For some reason the state is not thought of as being a solid place to play golf -- likely having no tour event hurts to some extent and that no men's major (save for the '91 PGA) has been played there in recent times.

Chris, how playable is The Dye Course at French Lick if they play reasonable tees -- say arounsd 7,500 yards versus all the way back. Pete included "TIP" tees at The Ocean Course but never meant for them to be played unless technology required it. Thoughts?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Crystal Downs hard??  Bring on the winds that took down the Edmond Fitzgerald and CD still doesn't come within a nautical mile of "all-world hard".  CD is a strategic course designed to please the tactician.  Many courses in the US, hell in Michigan, run circles around CD in the difficulty category.  JC

[Scott Henderson]

I was lucky enough to play TR and Tot Hill Farm when Kyle lived in NC a few years ago.  I consider myself, at best, an average player and I thought both courses were fun and would love to be able to play them regularly.  I didn't feel that either of them was that "hard."  There are many courses around that IMOH are "harder" than either of these.

[John Moore II]

I was lucky enough to play TR and Tot Hill Farm when Kyle lived in NC a few years ago.  I consider myself, at best, an average player and I thought both courses were fun and would love to be able to play them regularly.  I didn't feel that either of them was that "hard."  There are many courses around that IMOH are "harder" than either of these.

Glad to see someone else agreeing with the others of us here. Neither of those courses are that hard if you can trust your swing in the least and put the crazy stuff going on around you out of your mind. Most of the hazards at those places aren't really in play, but they make you think they are because you can't get them out of your mind. Both of those courses just play mind games on people, nothing else. I have only played Tot Hill once, so I would have to think it over, but at TR, it would really surprise me if the course record was higher than 62 or 63.

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