[JohnV]

In another thread, John Conely pointed out the possible statistical inaccuracy in the PGA Tour's measurement of average driving distance.  Yesterday, I was out at the Senior Tour event in San Jose.  The 16th was one of the tour's measuring holes.  I was standing next to another spectator who happened to bring his Bushnell laser range finder with him.  He zapped the sign board that was 10 yards behind the back of the tee and 15 behind where the markers were. He came up with 265.  Along side the edge of the fairway where we were standing was painted 280.  In reality it was 255 from the back of the tee and 250 from where they were hitting.

I noticed that most of the seniors hit their driver really low compared the youngsters.  With the firm fairways, they are frequently getting 30-50 yards of roll on their tee shots.

[Richard_Goodale]

My understanding is that Titleist won the contract to measure and paint those lines, after a fierce bidding war with Callaway.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JohnV,
That's an interesting observation. On the youngster tour this year there are 81 guys who hit it between 270-279 and 63 guys who hit it 280-289. I wonder if they are measuring in the same way?

[Matt_Ward]

Anytime the subject of distance is discussed it pays to keep in mind the following -- what does the player CARRY the ball in the air? Yes, plenty of players hit the ground with low drives and hope that ground conditions will advance them another 20-30 yards -- sometimes even more.

A small grouping of players on the PGA Tour can carry the tee shots +275-280 yards in the air. I'm not talking with wind or elevated tees but at or near sea level. Players may get to 300 yards total, but usually that's because of firm fairways or some other advantage such as downhill fairways and the like.

For players like Tiger, big John D and a few others yes I have seen them rip it in the air at or beyond 300 yards but it takes a superior effort. One of the finest has to be Tiger's final drive at Augusta last year. He had no more than 75-80 yards into the hole and his tee ball carried far up the hill on that hole.

For what's its worth I believe the Tour measures driving distance on two holes -- usually they go in different directions to offset any wind advantage and are holes where players will generally opt for the big stick.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

You are dead on.  To compare apples to apples, I quote distances of carry at sea level without wind.  It is amazing how many people say they hit it 250 because they factor in roll and their best hit.

280 driving distances for TOUR pros, while commonplace for them, are quite long compared to an average golfer.  About 60 or 70 yards more carry.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

I've attended a vast number of professional events over the years and many times people will just go beserk over "how far" the pros are hitting the ball. Like I said before if you measure carry in the air you really find who is hitting it longer -- especially at sea level without adding in roll from firm fairways, elevated tees, wind aided and the like.

For all the talk about distance let's look at some of the facts highlighted by the PGA Tour. In 1980 when the tour started to keep statistics the long driver was Dan Pohl with a distance of 274.3 yards. In 2000 you get John Daly at 301.4. -- Daly also had the longest total the year before in 1999 with 305.6.

Keep in mind Daly's total length on just two holes and is his total yardage. Does anyone believe Daly is carrying the ball in excess of 300 yards in the air with each and every swing. If you do please let me know because I have swamp land for anyone in the Meadowlands in Jersey.

Last year's tour average for distance was 273.2 -- again, does anyone believe pros are carrying the ball with the numbers many people routinely say they do? When I hear all this clamoring about how classic courses are being pulverized by increased distance I say show me the numbers to prove it. If anything the depth of pros are hitting it much straighter to technology and I also believe the short games / putting for most tour pros is beyond what people really believe.

There were 25 players above 280 yards in total distance according to the 2000 PGA Tour statistics. The top four were:

John Daly / 301.4
Tiger Woods / 298.0
Davis Love III / 288.7
Phil Mickelson / 288.7

Where are all the fellows carrying the ball beyond 280 yards? The reality of statistics takes away all the "I think this and think that" you find too many times on GCA and throughout various 19th hole discussions.

I hit the ball a decent ways and know that the vast number of players on the Tour are precision players who can drive a ball down a 30 foot street on command. Few can carry a bunker 275-280 yards without some sort of aid previously mentioned.

If people would really take the time to analyze who can hit the ball long and straight you find a different reality. If you want to know what makes Tiger the player he is it's the combination of the two items.  

Hope this helps ...

[John_Conley]

Matt:

We see eye-to-eye on this one.

The seniors are laughable.  I was watching an event when Bill Kratzert said, "He's absolutely killed this one!"  The ball couldn't have carried 200, but rolled about 80.  I understand the need to "hit a runner" when conditions call for it, but the problem with a golfer who relies on roll is that they'll be dusted when the course is soggy.

A long ball hitter CARRIES it a long way, otherwise conditions play too much of a factor.

(We saw posts about 330+ yard drives in the U.S. Open last summer.  While the ball eventually came to rest, those fairways were rock hard.)

[Matt_Ward]

John:

One last thing -- when I see the distance listed a player has hit on a given hole that bends slightly it kills me when announcers simply subtract from the yardage marker the player is at from the total distance of the hole and then say waaa-laaa -- "he just cranked that one 300+ yards."

What they don't often say is that when a player takes an aggressive line he is actually taking off a few yards from the actual distance on the card because holes, as you and others know, are measured on a laser to the point where the hole actually bends. Those players who play inside that line actually shorten the hole BUT that does not mean they hit the drive as far as some would have others believe

This happened Sunday at Bay Hill when Mickelson nailed one on the 15th hole and had no more than 95 yards left. Did the announcers say that by cutting the hole off at the elbow Phil was really playing a hole far less than it's stated distance on the card? Of course not -- you get Rolfing throwing out the same gibberish about how Phil just plastered it. Sure.

I can remember my father saying to me in watching the Golden Bear in his youthful prime (right after he turned pro) and seeing him smash balls (remember the old Red Maxflis and Tourneys -- if you as much as looked at the ball the wrong way it could have a "cut" on it) with persimmon clubs and sending the ball way down the fairway. Herbert Warren Wind actually details how far Jack was ahead of Arnie at Oakmont (sometimes as much as 30-40 yards). Them was the days of real distance.

Let's also remember that today's irons are also "strong" by a few degrees. When a player says he hit a drive and a 9-iron into a hole -- the iron he's playing today could have been a 7-iron from a few years back. The equipment companies simply gave people the illusion they could hit the irons that far.

John, when you watch senior golf I just start laughing when I hear all the gushing that this guy just absolutely wripped one. Minus a handful of players the best they are hitting the ball is in the 255-270 range. Without firm conditions these guys would be hard pressed to carry the ball beyond 240 yards in the air at sea level.

Don't even get me started with the LPGA "long distance" hitters.  

[Jeff_McDowell]

Matt and John,

I understand your argument about carry vs. length, but in my opinion if the ball stops 330 from the tee box, it's a 330 yard drive. It doesn't matter to me what the carry is.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

With all due respect -- it's great to cite a one-time drive and say "see these boys are really hitting it." Just check the tour's own statistics -- I have not made them up.

Does Tiger hit the ball in the air 330 yards on command? If he does we better check his blood. I'm not arguing he doesn't have the capability to do it periodically -- just not every swing. If he did the tour's own stats would show that -- they don't. Can he carry his tee shot close to 300 in the air on most swings -- that sounds closer to the truth. Remember his name is Tiger ... not Jason Zuback. Keep in mind Mickelson was quoted in a recent Golf Digest (November 2001) that he was carrying his driver 302 yards! I guess the tour stats from last year say otherwise.

Watch the boys when they hit Augusta and watch the inordinate roll (even with the fairways cut in the opposite direction). The very top players produce all the mileage associated with distance. People need to assess the elements of overall consistency versus one-time smashes.

The best thing Augusta ever did (if equalizing the field was the reasoning) with moving the bunkers further back was to hurt the players already mentioned. The "average" tour player won't even think of carrying those targets in dead air -- they'll just play to the side and go from there.  

shivas:

Have to believe you've been sucked into the tour hype becasue you need to check the stats -- not the machismo. Can a pro carry the ball 275 yards? Yes, there are some who can CONSISTENTLY -- the usual suspects -- Tiger, Phil, long John, etc., But start to go down that list after the first 20 players and a different reality sets in. Remember with no following wind, elevated tees and fairways that are hard as concrete.

[Paul Richards]

JohnV:

To say it simply -
they are hitting it TOO FAR!!

[Coral_Ridge]

If the longest pros are hitting their drives 30 yards longer than 20 years ago, then how much of that extra yardage is club, ball, and conditioning?

[Brad Klein]

What's the difference how they measure it? On average over recent years, they're hitting t way longer than they did. Forget about the longest hitters. Here are some recent data for average PGA Tour drives for the entire year:

1992:  260.5 yards
1997:  267.7
2002:  277.7

'nuff said?

[guest]

What's the difference how they measure it? On average over recent years, they're hitting t way longer than they did. Forget about the longest hitters. Here are some recent data for average PGA Tour drives for the entire year:

1992:  260.5 yards
1997:  267.7
2002:  277.7

'nuff said?

No Brad, one question, one more question please.......

You were a Tour caddie, correct?

What is  your personal observation/recollection from when you caddied compared to what you see now in person at the same course?  Obviously many pro venues have changed, but say Westchester CC which has been a Tour stop for years and years, or an Open or PGA Championship comparison.  We know that the Augusta of even 5 years ago no longer exists, so THAT won't work.  

[Paul Richards]

In my long and illustrious career as a "pro" caddie, I looped
at the 1981 Western Open at Butler National.  

I got a pretty good idea of how far the big boys hit it
during the five days I carried there.  

When I played there two summers ago, I hit the ball as far
as I remember that those guys had.

Here's an example:  hole number 16, Gary Trivissono, one of
the REALLY long guys isn't going to get out of the qualifier.

Hits a tee shot to the nasty left rough, about a foot in.  Has 218 yards to the flag.  Chooses an 8-iron.  Knocks it to about
a foot for an easy tap-in birdie.  It was the longest shot in
golf (for that club) that I have ever seen (with that old
technology even!).

When I played there, I hit a booming drive, and told my
playing partners about Gary's massive shot.  I choose an
8-iron, knock it to about a foot, and tap-in for birdie as
well.  

The difference?  I'm 30-40 yards farther from the same tee
to be able to hit in an 8-iron.

Technology is making tough and brutal courses, even like
Butler, obsolete for these guys.

Think also of the 18th at Butler - 450 yard par 4, with a
massive tree in the middle of a tight fairway, at least one
shot is over or involves the creek.  Almost an impossible
hole, eh?  These guys were hitting long irons in.  Today,
it's driver-9-iron, or wedge, and much of the challenge is
gone.

Roll back the ball!!!  

[BCrosby]

I have attended the Masters almost every year for nearly 20 years.  I have followed the best and the worst.  Good rounds, bad rounds.  Strong players, weak players.

If you do not think that top tier players are hitting the ball substantially farther than they were, say, ten years ago, you inhabit a universe with which I am not familiar.

Bob

[Rob Hallford]

There were 25 players above 280 yards in total distance according to the 2000 PGA Tour statistics. The top four were:

John Daly / 301.4
Tiger Woods / 298.0
Davis Love III / 288.7
Phil Mickelson / 288.7

Where are all the fellows carrying the ball beyond 280 yards? The reality of statistics takes away all the "I think this and think that" you find too many times on GCA and throughout various 19th hole discussions.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"  --Winston Churchill

The way the PGA measures driving distance is, as mentioned above, on a couple of holes each tournament where the pros are likely to pull out the whoopin' stick.  The fact is that they don't HAVE to hit driver--it's their decision, and given the money at stake based on lowest score, I don't think driving average enters into their decision process.  Jack Nicklaus would leave his driver in the bag for a whole round if he wasn't hitting it well and use nothing but 3-wood.  Now look at the top 4 drivers there and you'll see the 2 MOST aggressive players on tour (Phil and John) plus two guys who don't like to lay up either and are pretty consistent with their driver (Tiger and DL3) and thus don't necessarily gain much by hitting 3-wood.  The point is that these guys CAN hit it THAT far, the driving average stat is just misleading because a) pros choose not to hit driver sometimes, and b) because they do have mishits.  When Phil says he carries it 302, I believe him.

I do agree that pros irons are a few degrees stronger than what the average schmo plays with, so looking at what clubs they are hitting into holes is not such a good measure.

[Brad Klein]

I first caddied on Tour in 1976 - all told, 75 events, including a dozen majors. I remember caddying for Don Pooley at the 1978 PGA Championship at Oakmont, and they were hitting 4-5 irons into the 18th. Now they hit 7-8-9 irons. Yes, the irons are a little more upright, but Weiskopf has been playing with the exact same club specifications since 1964 and he tells me at his tender age of 59 he is 2-3 clubs ahead of where he was then as one of the longest hitters on tour.

I watched the 7th hole at Atlanta AC during last year's PGA and watched nearly every player there on Friday in perfect calm fly it over the right fairway bunker, 265-270 carry. The hole was about 425 and nobody hit more than a very short-irion in (though a few PGA club pros might have, but I didn't see).

Back in 1980, 240-250 yard drives were commonplace. Not anymore. But it's not only distance that's changed. Here's how driving patterns have changed in 25 years:

-nobody hits toe jobs, heel hooks or skies the ball anymore. The distribution pattern of even missed shots is much tighter than ever before.

-distances are up at least 10 percent, which means that when you calculate 14 drives and 18 half-shots into greens, courses are playing 500 yards shorter than they did in 1980.

-far greater uniformity in flight pattern (trajectory). While fairways are firmer, the ball comes down with much less spin, so that the vast bulk of distance is aerial, not on the ground. The old guys could run the ball forever, which is how they got their distance and why bunkers needed to be 225-240 out. Not anymore. They fly everything. Architects have moved the turn point of doglegs and carry points fairway bunkers from 200 yards (Ross) to 250 (Jones) to 267 (Dye in 1970s) to 300 yards (Dye today, Smyers, Weed, etc.)

-very hard to shape the shot, which is why when you need to turn it over you go to a club you can work, like a 3-wood. With modern flat clubfaces, nobody ever tries to work the driver with a cut or draw.

[Matt_Ward]

BCrosby:

Please re-read my original posts on the subject. I never said the top tier players were not hitting the ball further. But define the top tier? When I named Tiger, Phil, Long John, that's what I'm talking about. Do they consistently have the ability to fly the ball 280 yards in the air off the tee on every swing. Yes, they do but let's get real about the others. You might as well include Corey Pavin and Larry Mize and make them out to be Superman too!

I chuckle when people say forget about the tour stats on distance. It's amazing that people when faced with facts choose to go in another direction and say otherwise. Ok -- so what becomes the measurement? Opinions? Conjecture? Suppositions? The we get the examples of a player hitting the ball "one time really big" or hitting a short iron into "one particular hole." I used the word before and will say it again --consistently carrying the ball.

Brad Klein:

My main point was on CARRYING the ball in the air CONSISTENTLY at sea level. I stand behind my point that only the very top tier of strong players 20-25 max have the wherewithal to carry the driver in the air 280 yards per pop. Brad, I've been to plenty of tour events too over the years and roll is happening -- you make it sound like the tee shots just fall out of the sky and stop. Watch the tour events at Augusta, Harbour Town, Muirfield, et al, and unless they fairways are soaked the boys are getting roll -- sometimes as much as 20-30 yards of roll. My point from the get-go was on one word -- carry.

Indy:

I think you need to get re-acquainted with facts / please re-read your Churchill quote. Phil's announcement of 302 yard carry is based on what independent source? Oh, I forgot -- it's Phil saying that. Is Phil plugging in yardages from rounds in the desert?

The holes selected by the tour are chosen for the reasons already mentioned -- the likelihood that driver will be selected. Go to a tour event and you'll see what I mean.  

shivas:

Again, please re-read what I said. I've never, ever made the point that the very top players cannot carry the ball beyond 280 yards in the air. But, after you get through about the top tier of 20-25 the distance you think is not really taking place.

Gentlemen, since we are on the subject of isolated examples I'll leave you one -- the 10th at the Buick Classic (NY) is about 305 yards from the tips with an elevated tee. Guess how many guys actually flew the ball directly onto the green last year? Not one did who actually pulled out a driver. Tiger did bounce a ball on as his tee shot hit just in front of the green and skipped on. I was informed by marshalls covering the hole that others did reach the green or greenside bunkers but only after bouncing the ball into them.

Glad to see some people have figured out that today's irons are not really the same iron lofts people used to play because of slick marketing by the equipment companies telling you how far you are hitting your 9-iron (opps I mean 7-iron).

[John_Conley]

Jeff McD:

Get serious.  If a drive carries 280 and rolls 50 yards, a good rain makes your 330 poke a mere 280.

The point we are making is that when someone says "how far?" - Matt and I are just pointing out that you need to strip conditioning variances to make a relevant comparison.

If I told you I followed Ty Tryon last week and he hit one 340 yards, what does it tell you?  Nothing.  It may have been the shortest hit all day on that hole.  He may have bounced it off a path.  It could have been downwind and rolled because of dry conditions.  

If I told you I recently played with a current PGA TOUR member (two-time winner) and one of America's Top 20 college players and they regularly drove it 280 yards with minimal roll on a perfectly calm day at sea level, does that mean more?

I think a longish hitting TOUR player probably carries their good drives about 280.  You can ratchet up for elevation, wind, downhill holes, and roll.

Paul Richards:

Why do you say they hit it "too far"?  That seems like a broad-brush statement.

My take is that the genie got out of the bottle when two things happened - 1) Today's best players are open to playing what were once considered distance balls, partly because manufacturers have reduced the trade-offs in playability factors, and 2) It is now possible to swing so much harder because of equipment advancements and less premium on "dead-center" hits (see Dr. Klein's post above on same).

As long as you are hitting it straight, I don't think it is possible to hit it too far.  If you are not on the straight and narrow, you really don't need extra distance and may score better from further back.  This problem does not apply to professionals.  It is really astounding that they are able to be so accurate.

To all:

Somewhere this thread changed.  The title is self-explanatory, and early posts addressed this and attempted to quantify.  To make matters relevant, numbers focused on carry - the only way to know you are comparing apples.  Wanna know why Senior PGA TOUR players aren't competitive on the PGA TOUR despite having similar average driving distances?  They are substantially shorter hitters (no surprise when you consider the age differences) and their conditions are often VERY firm.

Later posts focused on the fact that players today are hitting if much further than they did 10 or 20 years ago, a fact which is very hard to refute.

Since Matt and I seem to be talking about 280 carries for the longest hitters (sea-level, no wind, nice weather), perhaps that number was as low as 240 twenty-five years ago.

I have a placemat with every shot Bobby Jones hit in his 3rd round 68 of the 1930 U.S. Open.  He regularly drove it 260+ and had some closer to 300.  The ground was also rock hard.  How far do you think he could carry it back then?  I'd be amazed if it was more than 225 yards.

Any scientific study would hold every variable possible constant, but very few of you seem to want to do that here.  Count carry under normal conditions and you'll be pretty fair.  Use any other data and you could reach any conclusion you want.

I could hold a long-drive tournament tomorrow with a winning drive of 300.  Or 400 if you wanted.  A 25% difference, or 33% if you go the other way!  Since conditions seem to be more important than technology, I go to great lengths to take them out of the equation when discussing length.

A former state-champion long-driver told me 15 years ago that very few people could carry it 250.  Today that is commonplace, which is all I need to know to indicate that a few factors have increased average drives.  But don't kid yourself into thinking many can carry a drive 300.  Phil and Tiger might be able to, but I suspect 280 would be in the top quintile of active TOUR players.

What you will not see is a series of 240 knockers.  No more.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

You and I were working at the same time.  YOU ARE BRILLIANT!!  Seriously, we agree on this completely.

Regarding older clubs.  My neighbor has owned his house for 5 years and just found some 70 year old clubs in the attic.  The loft on his 7 looks like a Hogan Equalizer.

Bad advertising from the past:  A TOUR player was quoted as saying his Tommy Armour 845s were 1/2 club longer than his old irons.  No kiddin', the lofts were wicked!

[THuckaby2]

Sort of an aside, but note that yesterday I played the course on which the Siebel Classic was held, with the tees and pins all left in the same place from Sunday... kind of a fun deal they do if you want to fork over the money... Anyway, the card distance was 7200.  In reality though 13 out of the 18 tees were moved up to some degree, such that the total ACTUAL distance was 6927.  Some of this was due to the strong wind and made sense, but a bit made no sense at all.

6927 with high rough and tough greens makes for a difficult course, as the scores from the Siebel show. I actually gained a lot of respect for the Sr. Tour boys seeing how they played it...

But 7200 was misleading.  I wonder if they do this all the time...

TH

[John_Conley]

Tom:

One of the biggest jokes in all of sport is the course setup for the Seniors and Women.  Both circuits have great players who could kill me if we played even up, yet they play much easier setups.

If they didn't, you'd seen even more repeat winners from the elite players than you do right now.

[THuckaby2]

JC:  I have indeed heard that.

In this case, however, I was indeed impressed at how TOUGH they had it for the old boys!  Yes, the distances were "deflated"... I kinda expected that.  BUT... the rough was VERY high - higher than I have ever seen at the course in question by FAR.  The fairways were also pinched in by said rough considerably... and the greens were double-cut and rolled, making them as hard and quick as I've ever seen also.

They sure as heck didn't have it easy in San Jose... and even at 6927 that's longer than the tees I normally play!

So I'm not gonna give the old boys any guff any more.  They can play.

I was just wondering about their "card" distances though... those were indeed pretty off, as I say.

TH

[John_Conley]

They finally played a tough course and most of the field was over par.  When the winner is regularly at 200 and you need to shoot a 210 to get a decent check, do you think their normal conditions are like that?

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