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Ran Morrissett

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What course(s) do these features best describe?
« on: July 11, 2010, 06:53:01 AM »
Width, playing angles, half par holes, central hazards, wild greens, bunkers with steep walls that are penal (in fact, unique enough overall to merit their own monikers), greens that fall from front to back, fairways that present uneven stances, FAST and FIRM conditions, out of bounds, burn/ditches, greens that are open in front, greens that sometimes encourage/force the golfer to land his aproach well before them, tricky visuals where depth perception becomes a real challenge on approach shots (i.e. greens that aren't handsomely framed)?

You get the point. Obviously, Oakmont and The Old Course spring to mind, which begs the side question: Did the father and son at Oakmont embrace more lessons from The Old Course than Macdonald ever did? Perhaps/perhaps not for if they did, Oakmont wouldn't have always been presented with thick rough on the sides of each hole (given its parallel holes, I have always contended that Oakmont should feature even more short grass via several shared fairways. Like St. Andrews, its greens and placement of hazards are great enough to allow such).

What other courses do the above features apply?

Prestwick, certainly.

NGLA, save for the ditch/burn.

Throw in the inverse of a ditch (a cop) and you have mighty Hoylake.

That's five of the world's top courses yet curiously, most architects don't embrace nearly half of the features above. Why is that?

Bandon doesn't have out of bounds but otherwise one hole at Old Macdonald (the sixth) has every single feauture listed above including the fabulous one of a green ala the third at Oakmont that possesses both a false front AND back.

Where else? Here's another modern one: Ballyhack and stay tuned for its course profile later this week.

Cheers,

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 07:44:40 AM »
Pine Valley ?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 07:48:08 AM »
The running argument on here in defense of the amateur/sportsman architect is an important discussion, because the kind of greatness that you see at places like Oakmont is probably more likely to develop as one amateur’s hobby than it is as a professional architect's project.

Sadly, even golf course architecture is effected by market forces. I mean the architect has a budget to mind, and at least one strong willed client to please.

But NGLA and Oakmont are the works of autocrats who didn't seem very concerned with what it cost to build. And to some degree you might say that they were not too concerned with public opinion either.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 08:12:28 AM »
I wouldn't describe the greens at Elie as wild (though they are good) but it certainly has all those other features in spades.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 09:04:33 AM »
Ran,
You need to see (and play) Wolf Point.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 09:14:53 AM »
Elie's green not wild...

how about 3, 4, 9, 10, 13 ???

Anthony Gray

Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 10:51:00 AM »

  WOW..great thread.

   And of course the answer is Cruden Bay.

  Width.......1st hole is wide from the tee but then gets narrow for the longer hitters. 2nd impossible to miss the fairway.3rd narrow almost laking a fairway.5th great width from elevated tee.9 and 10 can't miss farrow. 11 narrow as a two lane road.17 split faiway.

  Play Angles....2nd better coming in from the right.7th the ultimate dog leg.13 the lay-up is a must from as far left as you can place your second shot because of the hill that fronts the green.17 split fairway...do you go left or right off the tee?

  Half Par....3 a 3-.5 a 4+.8 a 3-.9 a 4+.A good combination of plus and minus.

  Central Hazzards....4 the short ball rolls 50 yards down the center of the fairway away from the green.6,10 and 13 all have water bisecting the fairway. 15 the moutain staring you directly in your face. 17 the viking burial mound in the exact middle of the fairway.

  Wild greens....6th is one of the best.7th slopes off in every direction.14 maybe the only one in the world.16 may not hold a ball that lands on it.

  Bunkers with steep walls...Behind 1.4 is a bastard.11th bunkering is very unfriendly.

  Front to Back greens...14 is an excellent example. 16 it is almost mandatory to take a lesser club and roll the ball on.15 slope to the back but less severe.

  Uneven Fairways...sidehill lies on 1,2,and3. And uphill or downhill lies on 4,8,9,14 and 15 if you miss.

  Fast and Firm....It is Scotland.

  Out of bounds...1,2,3,4,9,10,14 and 18.

  Burns...6,10,13 and 18.

  Greens open in front...Most of them with 14 and 16 being great examples of bouncing the ball in. 9 is also.

  Tricky visuals...All over the course.1 the 2nd shot to the green.2 is like hitting into a volcano.. 3Blind drivable par 4.4 the village on the left.5 launching the tee ball into the valley then being surrounded by dunes on this hole and the next.7 maybe one of the greatest 2nd shots in golf both visually and difficulty.8 ....well it is on the cover of The Confidential Guide. 10  very tricky,the burn looks drivable.13 can you drive it into the burn or do you need to lay up?14 where in the world is the green?15 same thing.16 close to the same question.17 what's that hump doing out therte?18 left is OB and right is the burn where do you place it?

  Thanks for your time...Anthony

 

TEPaul

Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 01:36:01 PM »
Ran:

One I saw recently that may not have all the things you listed but sure has a whole lot of them is Engineers in Long Island. It was pretty ironic to me since I just saw it for the first time less than two months ago and I grew up within less than five miles of it and one of my oldest and best friends lived right next to one of its holes.

Another one that impressed me with some of what you mentioned that I saw for the first time recently was Pasatiempo!

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 02:39:06 PM »
Elie's green not wild...

how about 3, 4, 9, 10, 13 ???

I didn't say they weren't good, or exciting.  Just not "wild".

You missed 6, by the way!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 03:12:08 PM »
I thought they had some OB stakes between 6 Old Macdonald and 15 Pacific Dunes. No?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 03:32:21 PM »
First course that sprang to mind?

Talking Stick North.  Though the greens aren't crazy.

Second?

The Rawls Course.


Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 04:00:18 PM »
Ran:

Ballyhack leaps to mind.  I look forward to your profile.

WW

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course(s) do these features best describe?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 05:38:17 PM »
Width, playing angles, half par holes, central hazards, wild greens, bunkers with steep walls that are penal (in fact, unique enough overall to merit their own monikers), greens that fall from front to back, fairways that present uneven stances, FAST and FIRM conditions, out of bounds, burn/ditches, greens that are open in front, greens that sometimes encourage/force the golfer to land his aproach well before them, tricky visuals where depth perception becomes a real challenge on approach shots (i.e. greens that aren't handsomely framed)?

How bout North Berwick?  So far as I can tell it meets all the criteria except for perhaps wild greens (if we except the 16th), but that is a good thing imo.  I want good greens, not necessarily wild greens. 

Woking?  Pennard? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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