Is the Cape hole at OM a Cape hole?

[Richard Choi]

Based on information from the recent thread on the definition of a "cape hole", I thought George declared that you must have a green surrounded on three sides by hazard (aka cape).

Then, why is the Cape hole at Old Macdonald only surrounded by hazards on two sides with back right being open? Is it really a cape hole without the "cape"?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I guess we should go back to that thread because there was a lot of detailed discussion and analysis....

...But my opinion is whatever the initial reason for the use of the word "cape" (such as the green jutting out as one), the definition of what that hole is about has morphed in to the heroic diaganol carry from the tee with suitable reward for the second... Has Old Mac got that?

[Anthony Gray]

  I believe that originally "Cape" was choosen because the green was surrounded by water,which at NGLA it no longer is. Current definition I understand possibly incorrectly relates to a tee shot that crosses a hazard at an angle. With this definition I think that a true modern cape hole has the possibility of a lost ball/penalty from the tee if the player tries to bite too much off. OM has bunkering but not the threat of a lost ball. Just a thought.....would the cape hole at OM be more of a cape hole if it had a field of gorse to cross from the tee?

   Anthony

 

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

When we found the hole on site, the green sat at the end of a narrow corridor between two huge patches of gorse, after a dogleg.  That's how it got the name "Cape".  But then we cleared most of the gorse, because it was so high you couldn't see the green from the tee at all, and because it would eventually have taken over the hole otherwise.

Whether it is still a Cape, with most of the gorse cleared, I will leave to others to debate.  We tried to leave enough random gorse mixed in with the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg that there is a reasonable chance of a penalty stroke, to keep players honest, but while greatly reducing the chance of a lost ball.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

When we found the hole on site, the green sat at the end of a narrow corridor between two huge patches of gorse, after a dogleg.  That's how it got the name "Cape".  But then we cleared most of the gorse, because it was so high you couldn't see the green from the tee at all, and because it would eventually have taken over the hole otherwise.

Whether it is still a Cape, with most of the gorse cleared, I will leave to others to debate.  We tried to leave enough random gorse mixed in with the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg that there is a reasonable chance of a penalty stroke, to keep players honest, but while greatly reducing the chance of a lost ball.

  It is definatly more playable without the gorse,but I just love the stuff. I also think gorse all the way down the left side of 15 of Pac Dunes would provide a nice aesthetic seperation between that hole and the Long at OM. Does that make me a gorse whore? I just like the old look better.

  Anthony

 

[Richard Choi]

So, does the fact that the original intention was a cape hole if not in final execution make it a "cape" hole?

The hole was a BRUTE playing into a stiff breeze. It was a quite a task just to reach the fairway from the tee.

[Tom Yost]

"Inspired by..."

[Richard Choi]

Here are some pictures of the Cape hole. Unfortunately, I didn't take any from the otherside of the green...

From the tee, you can see all the hazard you need to carry on the right side:


Here is the green, you can see that there are openings between the bunkers:

[Rob Rigg]

I guess its a "dry cape"?

If they had created a huge "cape" waste bunker it would not have looked very natural - it does not have the fear of a "cape" - Are there any "great" capes that do not have water?

[Tom_Doak]

I think Macdonald borrowed some of the Cape hole from the tenth at Westward Ho! In England, with its diagonal tee shot over the Great Sea Rushes.  Coincidentally (hmm...) the other famous feature of that course is the fearsome Cape bunker which you drive over at the fourth hole.

Anyway there was zero chance we were going to dig a pond 500 feet from the Pacific Ocean just so we could build a more recognizable Cape hole.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Anyway there was zero chance we were going to dig a pond 500 feet from the Pacific Ocean just so we could build a more recognizable Cape hole.

Thank you for that!

[Rob Rigg]

Tom,

How did you decide how to create the Cape illusion with those bunkers?

Meaning - How did you choose how many? Where to dig? Were there any natural depressions that made sense to use? Is there a reason that you did not make a huge "Cape" bunker/waste area - eg - foot traffic?

It looks like one of the bunkers runs seamlessly up the fairway - it is a bit harder to tell from the ground.

Thanks

[George_Bahto]

Thanks to Joe Bausch's research of newspapers, here is one of the reasons NGLA 14 was moved inland - Macdonald was pissed because they were getting close to driving his original green (and of course the other important reason was the new road to the new gates, swim club, yacht basin and the club house

                      

[Garland Bayley]

Great illustration George!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

How did you decide how to create the Cape illusion with those bunkers?

Meaning - How did you choose how many? Where to dig? Were there any natural depressions that made sense to use? Is there a reason that you did not make a huge "Cape" bunker/waste area - eg - foot traffic?

It looks like one of the bunkers runs seamlessly up the fairway - it is a bit harder to tell from the ground.

Thanks

Rob:

Jim and the rest of the shaping crew made most of the decisions you are asking about, other than the positions of the inside bunkers at the corner, and one through the fairway, which I marked.  They used natural depressions and steered around little patches of gorse that might be preserved.  We tried to make it a bunch of smaller, randomly-strewn bunkers because big bunkers tend to get deep and unwieldy in Bandon -- see some of the bunkers at Pacific Dunes where the floor has fallen out and which are now four feet deeper than when they were built!

Funnily enough, one of the runner-up entries in the Lido Prize competition of 1914 was a dogleg hole built around a giant waste bunker.  Bernard Darwin was one of the judges, and he commented that while the design of the hole was excellent, it presupposed that you could find a perfect, enormous natural hazard of just the right shape and size, and even if you did, such a hazard would likely be hard to maintain and control.

[Anthony Gray]

  16 at Pac Dunes may qualify more than the cape at OM.......for the sake of discussion.

   Anthony

[Tim Martin]

I guess its a "dry cape"?

If they had created a huge "cape" waste bunker it would not have looked very natural - it does not have the fear of a "cape" - Are there any "great" capes that do not have water?

I`ll throw out #8 at Yale as a great cape with no water.

[George_Bahto]

Tim I agree - good call - 8 Yale has a Cape style green but it is also a 2-shot Redan

Charles Banks 1931:

"The first shot of this hole is 180 yards to a saddle crossing the fairway.  A roll up or carry of the knoll gives a roll down the other side of the saddle into a broad level basin making 220 yards not difficult.  The basin is the playing area for the second shot.  The second shot should be for a kick in from the front right corner of the green.  The green combines characteristics of both the Cape and the Redan." (Banks, circa 1931)

[Rob Rigg]

Thanks Tom.

One of the most interesting aspects of OM from a GCA perspective is what was used in the template and what was not (obviously).

The creation of an "alps" on Alps or the swale in the Biarritz green or the Road Hole Bunker are features that had to be included for a template to make sense, I would imagine, while other features such as the construction of the Cape, Redan, Biarritz surroundings, Sahara Bunker, Short, Hell Bunker, not having a Road behind the Road Hole Green, etc. were more interpretive based on the site, hole location, etc.

It would probably take up a book - but it would be fascinating to learn how template features were added, dropped, ignored, tweaked, etc. during the design and construction process.

I am curious if you all ever chatted about what you "could" have gotten away with but drew a line short, or way short, of it anyways because the course was going to be so unique, and likely polarizing, regardless and people can only absorb so much "different" at once?