News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« on: March 17, 2002, 06:56:20 PM »
I had an invitation to play Isleworth last week, the private club in Orlando where Tiger Woods, Mark O'Meara, Shaquille O'Neal, Ken Griffey Jr and others are members.  Since you can't get from Pensacola to Orlando the morning of an 11 am tee time (check your map), I flew down the previous morning and was able to get in a round at Southern Dunes, an upper end daily fee course just south of Orlando.  John Conley, fearless course rater in Orlando, picks both these courses in his top 10% of area courses.

Playing both these top-rated courses back to back gave me an opportunity to compare the two.  Since I just turned 60, some of the details are fuzzy after four days, but I do have some distinctions between the two which I believe favor Southern Dunes.

For the record, Isleworth was designed by Ed Seay of the Arnold Palmer Design Group, Southern Dunes by Steve Smyers.   I am really looking forward to playing more Smyers designs in the future.

Common denominators:  both courses are more rolling terrain than you would expect in Florida, and both have wide playing corridors, generally at least 70 yards.

Isleworth was a fabulous experience.  Arnold Palmer was there, hosting an outing for VIPs attending the Bay Hill Classic.  The course was in much better condition, although there is a definite drainage problem: heavy rains the night before sat in deep puddles all over the course.  It's possible the leaves from extensive hardwood trees have clogged the drains.  

A further note on Isleworth is that a strong wind (30 mph gusts) was up, creating white caps on nearby Lake Butler.  This made it difficult to evaluate some of the shorter par 4's for strategic choices.

That's the major difference between the two courses in my humble and unschooled opinion: Southern Dunes has a great number of strategic options and alternate playing lines throughout the course, while Isleworth might have been designed with T. Woods in mind -- bomb it way down there and fly a shot into the green.  I don't have a yardage book from Isleworth to refresh my memory, but don't think there was an alternate route hole on the course.  The basic idea was to hit a draw on the dogleg lefts, a fade on the dogleg right, and fly the ball to the greens.  There is one fine lengthy par 4 where you decided how much of a diagonal bunker complex to cut off, but that was about it.

By contrast, SD abounds with strategic situations.  The 3rd hole is a lengthy (233 tips, 221 from the blue tees I played, about 6800 yards) reverse Redan.  The 4th is a 555/520 par 5 with a large central complex of five shaggy-edged bunkers.  Layups directly at the hole result in blind shots, so second shots must be hit way left or into a hidden flat area to the far right which has a terrific angle and flat green aspect for the third shot.  The fifth (as noted by John Conley) is a great short par 4, 378/361, with a grouping of seven bunkers dead in the center of the fairway and a cape green on a peninsula into a pond to the right of the green.  The right fairway is wide, maybe 50 yards, and inviting, but shots from that side into the cape green are difficult and dangerous.  The left fairway is a great piece of deception by Smyers as it appears to be maybe ten yards wide from the tee but is actually at least forty yards wide.  A shot to this side results in an open angle to the narrow green, and the opportunity to bounce the ball in from a nice slope front left of the green (shots from the right to this slope would most likely wind up in a collection area left of the green).  A really nice optional fairway par 4.  

There is nothing like this at Isleworth.

The general theme at Southern Dunes is that there is a side of every fairway which yields an open rather than blind shot to the green, and generally the opportunity to play shots on the ground.  Again, Isleworth has a lot of front bunkering and not as many ground options.

Southern Dunes has another great little Redan hole, the 14th, a 167/149 yarder.  The green is wide and steep, and shots landing on the right side of the green or right approach will definitely move to the left.  I hit a 7 iron onto that right apron and saw the ball move maybe 100 feet to the left pin position, where it unfortunately hung up in the thick froghair directly above the hole.  If it escapes, the ball would have rolled down to the pin and left an uphill putt.

#15 at Southern Dunes is another world class short par 4.  Another central grouping of three large hilly and wild bunkers gives the option of busting a driver left, where the second shot is a wedge into a very steep green sloping away (much like #15 at Pine Barrens at World Woods), or hitting a mid iron to the right which left me a nine iron which I was able to play to the left slope.  The resulting ball roll left a 20 foot uphill putt.

The 16th is a pretty average par 5 which has a wild green, the wildest on the course:  a Biarritz swale divides front from back pins, and a steep right to left slope is added for really difficult putts.  This was a bit over the top.

The final two par 4's (#17 421/397, #18 461/420) each has a green which slopes from front to back, #17 throwing in a left to right slope, really fun to play off, and #18 a fairly steep slope in front with no bump at the green front, which resulted in a shot which had to be played maybe 30 yards short to have a chance to get close to the front pin.

Green speeds at both courses were probably in the 10 stimp range.

The most intimidating hole of the two days had to be #2 at Isleworth --- 175 yard par 3, all carry to a bulkheaded green flanked by huge cypresses with a 30 yard opening.  And a 25 mph wind from the right.  "Crack - splash!" is probably a pretty common sound.

All in all, I really enjoyed the architecture more at Southern Dunes.  John Conley is right, these two courses are top decile in Orlando.

Comments from those who have played either course or other Steve Smyers courses will be welcome!

Bill McBride
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2002, 07:42:00 PM »
Bill, FYI Steve Smyers is going to be our Feature Interview for May and I'm sure he will be entertaining questions at that time and that he'll be delighted with your feedback.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2002, 01:06:45 PM »
Bill:

Steve Smyers also worked on Isleworth.

I agree with a lot of your assessment, but didn't ever see #3 as a Reverse Redan!!

To play "true to intent", I'd love to see S.D. when the ground was very firm.  Unfortunatley in Florida, we have a lot of rain in the summer and very little in the winter.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2002, 01:13:04 PM »
Smyers work on Isleworth was a revision.  As a result he had little to do with the routing.  I'm told his revision was a significant improvement.  I am a big fan of Southen Dunes.  Smyers shows a lot of flexibility when you compare designs like Southen Dunes to Wolf Run.  Adapts to site and owner objectives while producing quality work.  Steve is also a very engaging person.  I look forward to his interview.  He is a member (adviser?) of the USGA committee relating to equipment so I hope that Ran will engage him in that area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2002, 02:27:57 PM »
Bill (and others),

Good feedback Re: Steve Smyers...especially his work at Southern Dunes.  I have the good fortune of having a tee time scheduled there for Wednesday, March 27th with my brother-in-law and childhood best friend.

I played at SD way back when in 1998 when there was still a fair amount of housing construction and other distracting activities going on.  I cannot wait for this return trip in a few weeks to really get a flavor for the course and its layout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2002, 03:09:07 PM »
John, next time there take a look at the sort of banked front left of the green on that long par 3 - appeared to me that a low tee ball over there would head toward the green center.  Maybe a "modified semi reverse Redan!"  It would certainly favor my typical low slider with a long iron.

Southern Dunes was playing a lot faster than Isleworth, where there are serious drainage problems in many areas. Someone told me that there was a major lawsuit by a homeowner and a multi-million dollar settlement that contributed to the demise of an earlier ownership group -- early '90's.

Evan, you'll be disappointed to learn that there is still a lot of construction activity going on at Southern Dunes, primarily in street construction for what looks like a lot of new homes.  Not particularly distracting however, except when maneuvering the cart through a bunch of detours.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2002, 06:09:04 AM »
Cart???

Do you know if they allow walking?  D'oh!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2002, 02:49:14 PM »
Evan, John Conley told me he had never walked the course and he's a lot younger than I am!  I think you could walk although there are quite a few subdivision separations. During the six hours or so I was on the property, I didn't see one person walking, and the green fee was inclusive of cart.  Hey, this is Florida!

Having said that, I am looking to buy one of those 3 wheel push/pull carts and stop carrying my bag.  Too much strain on an old guy's back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2002, 03:16:50 PM »
Bill,

All of the older members at my home course have those Kangaroo three-wheel deal-ies to carry their bags...which is perfectly fine with me since that means a majority of folks walk and do not ride.

During the summer, I play a lot of midday golf with a group of "super seniors"...they all use me as the young whipping boy, which is just fine...and all swear by the club caddies of which you speak.  Takes away a lot of the strain caused by carrying your clubs, which I personally don't mind.

As for SD...if my buddies cart it, then I might also...but I'd love to make a go of it on foot, if at all possible.  It's just a "thing" with me...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Orlando Golf Courses Compared
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2002, 10:29:41 AM »
I walked North Shore, the only "real" course I know of in Orlando that permits walking, and people thought I was insane, deranged, or both.

A heavy rain will limit a private club in my area to "no carts" and they won't even do twenty rounds that day.

In Orlando, we ride.  I'm not happy about it, but do admit to having trouble walking 18 and still playing well in the hottest weather.  I tried it at CCO the only time I played there and it was like my personal Bataan.  Some days it is too hot for me to enjoy walking as much as a day of not walking.  You cannot compare much of the country to Florida when our humidity gets up there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »