[Chris Kane]

It's time for another thread with an Australian theme!

There are some excellent finishing holes on the Melbourne Sandbelt, but which one is the best?  This can be from a design perspective only, and/or the best way to conclude a round or a tournament.

Another related topic - at RM, which is the better finishing hole?

I'll tell you what I think once someone has had a go themselves.  This thread has no potential to be redirected into a slanging match towards certain architects - which is good for a change.

[Paul Daley]

Best finishing hole on Melbourne Sandbelt? My top-four in order is: Commonwealth, RM East, Kingston Heath and RM West.

[Chris Kane]

Paul,

Is the Commonwealth hole really the best one of those four?

It's a great green complex, and I like the greenside bunkering, but better than RM East?  It's close, but I'd lean toward the East hole.

Please don't get me wrong, its a nice hole, but one that could be made a million times better with the aid of a chainsaw.

[Paul Daley]

My reason for choosing Commonwealth is that I've played and/or witnessed all of them in pennant, and noted their effect on golfers "under the gun". Some strange things do  happen here.

It is well acknowledged that Commonwealth has issues with trees; overplanting and overcrowding, and I'm sure the designer didn't intent the trees to branch out (no pun intended) to the curreent degree. The issue, however, appears to be more of a problem on other holes.

Still no. 1 for me.

[NicP]

RM East is a classic finishing hole and get's my vote as No.1. I also like Comm, RM West, KHGC amd MGC - all strong Par fours. I will throw one in that will so my bias for my home course but I think the 18th at VGC has been greatly improved since Mike Clayton renovated the bunkers and green. It's a great Match-Play hole were a 4 is always on but a simple mistake, like missing the fairway in the newly deepend and extended traps, will almost always result in a 5 or more. I know it's not the "best" but it has the most potential to provide a spectacular finish - eagle to double! To me that's a great finishing hole!

[Mike Clayton]

18 at Victoria will be a very good finish now it is a little more demanding
The last at Spring Valley has a new tee 45 yards back and it is now a terrific hole. With a little work on the fairway bunker
it will rival the more famous holes.
I always enjoyed hitting 2 good shots onto the last at Yarra Yarra.
RME is still the best though in my opinion.

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris

Re 18 at Comm, the club has tried a couple of times to get the members to agree to move the fairway bunkers on the right side across to the left. So far with no success. Would it make for a better hole? I'm not sure, I like it the way it is. I still think it amd RM East are the two best closers.

Shane

[Anthony O Shea]

Another vote for RME, although I think 18@RMW would get more support if the hole before it wasn't so damn good (a tie with 17 at Peninsula South for the best second last - any excuse to use the word 'penultimate' - hole on the Sand Belt?).

If you play the back nine first, then the 9th at Vic is the best finishing hole on the Sand Belt, and the second best finishing hole in Australia (behind Bob Harrison's 18th at The National! )

Anthony.

[Simon H]

Hmmm, Shane  I think you just like a good arguement, but I can't resist responding.  As an RM member I may be considered biased, however i'll go with 18E if only because of the green and associated bunkering.  It has suffered as a finishing hole in recent times I notice that most pro's hit a SW or PW into this hole whereas at the JW Classic they were hitting 8i or 7i in.  Correspondingly it has dropped to the 11th hardest hole on the course (18W was 5th), but despite that the green complex remains intimidating for 99% of golfers.

Paul, I agree with your comments on Commonwealth and it gets 2nd by a whisker followed by RMw and the Heath.

[SGD]

To my Australian friends:

Thanks for contributing the Melbourne Sandbelt topics and comments, they add a lot to this site.

The green complex at 18 on the East course at Royal Melbourne makes it the best I've played in Australia, and I'm not sure what I would put ahead of it in the US, perhaps 18 at Riviera for its natural topography and ampitheatre setting or 18 at Winged Foot West with its wonderful sloping (and historic) green.  My perennial favorite, 18 at Pebble Beach, has been significantly compromised by the loss of the Monterey Pines on the right side of the fairway off the tee and to the front right of the green.  Even with it a short iron in hand, Royal Melbourne East's 18th is REAL dicey.

As an aside, obviously the RM West course has received attention worldwide (it's my personal #1 in the world), but anyone travelling to Melbourne should really also play and study the East Course.  The East course is on flatter land, especially the holes across the road, but there are some great holes, especially 2, 3, 4, 10, 16 (as good as #15 at Kingston Heath), 17, and of course, 18.

I would encourage all those who really love golf architecture, after you make the obligatory Scotland and Ireland trip, to get on a plane and to Australia and see some of the best stuff you've ever seen.  Great lovers of golf, too.  IMO, 36 holes at Royal Melbourne playing with the members, as opposed to being in a guest group, is as good as it gets anywhere.

[Mike Duffy]

Royal Melbourne East 18th would win most plaudits as the best finishing hole in Melbourne.

Commonwealth's 18th is also a demanding finisher.

Also, I believe, Keysborough's 18th is a demanding finishing hole, probably the only one on the course that has been bettered by change.

The worst finishing hole in Aussie golf (at least of major courses), is, in my opinion, the 18th at the Lakes.

I just don't like par three's being the openers or closers, and the 18th at The Lakes, besides being a par three finisher, is a woeful up-hill design, ususally played either with a cross-wind from the left or right, or occasionally head-on.

I don't think there are any holes on the sandbelt that would replicate that disaster as a finisher.

[Chris Kane]

In my opinion, RM East has the best green complex, with the best bunkering.  However, this hole epitomises the alleged "obsolesence" of RM.  I can imagine what a difficult hole it would be with a mid-long iron, but with the pros and low markers hitting PW, the green loses some of its impact.

That said, it is a fantastic hole, and probably the best stage for the end of a tournament.  It is a hole with grandeur!

Commonwealth is a more difficult hole, with the bunkering eating into the green.  I'd hate to need a par to win a match there.  

How would I rate them?
RM East
Commonwealth, RM West
Vic (in its new format)
KH
Metro
YY
All these are excellent holes though.  I agree with the assessment that a feature of the sandbelt are the great finishing holes.

Mike Duffy, surely The Lakes finish cannot be worst than Kingston Links??!!??  

[Anthony O Shea]

Mike,

For a course with so many good - if unconventional - holes, The [poor old] Lakes cops more than its fair share of criticism. I don't know what you do for an encore at the end of a nine that includes 10!! (the best short par 4 in Sydney, and maybe Australia?), 11!! (the best par 5 in Sydney?), 14! (the best short par 5 in Sydney?), 16! and 17! - and the holes I've left out aren't half bad either.

All they need to do at The Lakes is move the clubhouse.

Anthony.

[Shane Gurnett]

Seems to be general agreement on the topic. Good also to see the various club members pumping their own courses wherever possible, again a sign that things are generally healthy on the sand belt.

Changing the topic slightly, one trend that I have noticed on many of these sand belt related threads, and particularly when the discussion gets down to the strengths/memorability/quality of individual holes, is the almost complete lack of praise and recognition for Metropolitans holes. I mention this because I played there today (fairways "perfect" as expected) with no shortage of guests and members readily proclaiming the course as "easily the finest in the country".

The conditioning is easily the most noticable factor that sets Metro apart from the rest of the 'belt, but when it comes down to the individual holes, Metro seems to lose some ground in the eyes of many. Thats not to say that there are really any weak holes, but does it lack some of the classic examples that the other sandbelt courses share? I've always been a fan of Metro and certainly its a treat to play there, but does it really deserve some of the plaudits and high ratings it presently enjoys? Or is the great conditioning being more highly regarded than outstanding design?

Sorry for diverting the thread a little, but I'm interested in the thoughts of others.

Shane

[Chris Kane]

Shane,

I too am a fan of Metro - but I wouldn't have it among the finest in the country as many people seem to think.

The conditioning factor has been taken beyond what is reasonable - when people say that Metro is the finest in the country, it's obvious that they think conditioning is the most important aspect in assessing a course.  It's clear that conditioning is at the top of people's minds.

An interesting issue is what Mike C has/has been percieved to say about Metro.  A member I spoke to some months ago told me that he was surprised that the committee hadn't asked him to resign - "he has bagged Metropolitan for years", "in 97 he said the fairways were too good, how bizarre is that?"

Knowing what I do now, people are inclined to take what Mike says out of context, and therefore assume he is bashing his own club.

Easily the finest in the country?  That comment is criminal.

It features many fine holes, but no great ones come to mind.  A decade ago, it was ranked by AGD at 12, but now it is at 4.  Mostly due to conditioning, IMO.

[Brian Walshe]

Anthony,

On the Lakes, neither 9 or 18 are anything to rave about.  I played there a couple of months ago and it has some very good holes.  I suppose I have trouble getting too excited as long as there are patches of kikuyu in there and you are never quite sure what bounce you are going to get.

As for 11 being the best par 5 in Sydney, well I'd vote for 5 at NSW.  It can be anything from eagle to 10 but the tee shot gets the heart going and walking over that hill to see what is laid out below is awesome.

[Chris Kane]

To divert the thread again, what is the best finishing hole in Sydney, out of the LARN group (Lakes, Australian, RS, NSW)?

I have no idea at all - have never played golf in Sydney, however, I am playing three days of golf there this Sunday - Tuesday.

[Mike Clayton]

The members perception I am critical of the course comes from an article written for The Age before the 1997 Open
'Many who play or watch will be astounded by the perfectly grassed fairways.To take a divot gives you almost the same feeling as you get when you practice in the hotel room,chunk the carpet and have to drag the bed over it and hope the maid wont discover it in the morning.
If there is a danger in such perfection it is that many come to revere it and aspire to reach the same standards when,truthfully,perfect grass was never a feature of the game on the origional great links of Great Britain.Certainly every ball lying on the fairway is guaranteed a perfect lie and I must admit I sometimes wonder whether thats a good thing'

I might have well have written
'the course is terrible and I cant believe the Open is here this week'
From the reaction thats what most thought I said.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mike

I've got a couple of friends who are Metro members and strangely they love playing away from the place. They actually lament the fact that the condition is "too good", and that the game there has become a bit sterile. I'm not sure I really agree, but I take their point.

Bizarre circumstances when you really think about it.

[Chris Kane]

Shane:
That's a very interesting comment, and I can imagine where they are coming from.  We'd need to be playing there every week to really understand.

Interesting how people hold Metro in such high regard, but when placed head-to-head against RM and KH, it doesn't hold up too well except in the area of conditioning.  The par 3's aren't anything of note, the long 4's are fairly strong but with no standouts, while I can't say I get excited over the 5's.

The only hole which comes close to a standout for me is 16 - a cracker of a short par 4.

Mike,
Shows how easy it is for words to be taken out of context, and reputations changed becuase of it.

Can you share your opinions on the Metro greens?

[MikeClayton]

Chris

For week in week out quality they have not approached the consistantly good surfaces at RM , Vic,KH The National or Portsea.
Good greens are good all year round not just on the important occasions.
I have a particular affection for Portsea and maybe it clouds my judgement but considering their budget is probably half the others they are astounding for the consistancy of quality.
People also forget how poor they were 12 years ago -just soft mushy poa.

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

How do the week to week conditions on the Sandbelt compare with the conditions on the European Tour?

Brian

[Mike Clayton]

Brian
They bear little resemblance now because they now play a bunch of 'modern' courses that are just copies of American tour courses.
eg.
The Oxfordshire,Belfry,Forest of Arden Valderrama,Celtic Manor,all the new Irish courses,Kclub,Mt Juliet etc ,Monarch at Gleneagles,French National,nearly all new courses in Germany.
There are more sadly.
Tour golf the world over ,except here largely,is not about the best courses its about promoting coufses that need promotion.
They will never do it but its why US tour pros ought to forget about their wallets occasionally and come to RM every now and then. It wouldnt do their games any harm.

[Mike Duffy]

I am a BIG BIG FAN of The Metropolitan (many people don't realise that the correct name is THE Metropolitan).

I first set foot on it in the 1960s and have loved it ever since.

The bunkering, the subtlies of the greens, and the fantastic birdlife that abounds on the property bring me much joy.

A four on the 18th at Metro is some achievement.

Just ask Greg Norman. I saw him three-putt from 35 feet to the right of the hole in 1979 to hand the Oz Open of that year to an elated Jack Newton.

Twenty years later, deja vu, Norman three-putts from almost the same spot, to lose in a playoff (I think they played the 18th three times!!) against Lee Westwood.

Metro has some lovely holes including the opening hole, which to my way of thinking, is amongst one of the best opening holes in Australian Championship courses.

ANTHONY
For the most part I love The Lakes, but I dislike the 18th  hole intensely. In fact the par threes at The Lakes are not much to write home about at all.

The holes on the north-western side of the course leave quite a lot to be desired, but once one has gone through the tunnel to t'other side, the fun really starts, apart from the 9th, which once again I think is a woeful par three.

[Chris Kane]

Mike D,

From what I've gathered, the 'the' in The Metropolitan Golf Club is a definitive article.  Same as The Royal Melbourne Golf Club, The Victoria Golf Club, The Peninsula Golf Club.

The National is the only case I can think of where the definitive article preceding the name has actually stuck.

I too like (The!) Metropolitan, it has many nice holes - but for me, no great ones.  It sits very nicely because the holes are consistently good.  Yes, nice bunkering, nice greens, everythings NICE!

But it doesn't sit favourably with RM or KH...the lack of a few GREAT holes sets it back.

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