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On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?
Cliff...this may not be exactly what you are looking for, but it has some of what you mentioned...http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/index.htmHowever, I am with you concerning getting something like this on GCA.com
Quote from: Jay Flemma on April 21, 2010, 11:40:06 AMOn an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?JayI was of a similar belief too - re: a steep dropoff over the back to make the recovery even more difficult ?From what I've seen I believe Fishers Island is better than GCGC and NGLA's
Bill McB and TomD:I'm trying to follow what you are saying about various holes particularly say the 16th at NGLA having some kind of architectural DNA from maybe the 17th at Lundin Links. But Tom D seems to say the tee shots perhaps are the only similarities and Bill McB seems to agree.But the 16th at NGLA has always been and been named "Punchbowl." Perhaps it is pretty obvious and I've just missed it over the years but where do you think the DNA for Macdonald's 16th green came from abroad or otherwise? Was it ever mentioned in print at any time? I've never thought of it before as to whether the green of NGLA's 16th was considered by most to be one of CBM's original concepts or whether it was considered he may've gotten the idea for it from somewhere else before NGLA without ever actually mentioning where he came up with the real "punchbowl" green concept.On the other hand, I'm aware, or I think I am, that there must have been numerous greens extant abroad in the "Dark Ages" (loosely 1850 to maybe the mid 1890s) that used bowl shaped greens for apparently water retention for the turf before any man-made irrigation was available on golf courses.So what about CBM's "punchbowl" green and its concept at NGLA? Was it his original idea or do you think he saw it somewhere previously? I do know that even if NGLA's 16th green-end is a very large punchbowl of sorts on basically three sides very little of which is actual greenspace (or ever was?) it is very open on one side----the right---which is actually a most interesting approach option for what is such a totally blind approach shot from anywhere and everywhere off any kind of tee shot.
Quote from: Jay Flemma on April 21, 2010, 11:40:06 AMOn an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?Jay,'Eden' was the old name for the 7th hole on TOC. It goes back to 1821. In the late 1800's it started becoming known at High (In). I think that name (High- In) was adopted more permanently just after the turn of the 20th Century. I wonder if those modeling holes on it now call it 'High'? Or should they?scottsscott
Mac, I've got a good one for you. I was visiting Jim Thompson's Angels Crossing in Kalamazoo. After putting out on the first hole Jim turns to me and says, "How edenesque". I looked around at the beautiful surroundings, complete with an all natural low lying marsh/pond filled with long reeds and plants of all types and figured he was talking about the Garden of Eden, and I completely agreed. He must've sensed my confusion because he said "no no the green". Heck, I wouldn't know. Redans and Knolls are a bit easier to identify, IMO.