[Simon Holt]

I finally realised a 15 year ambition to play NGLA the Friday before last.  As a kid caddying at North Berwick I would hear travelling Americans talk of National and in particular their version of Redan.  I thought it would be great to see one day.

I have to say that it was the first time I have been that nervous on the 1st tee for quite sometime.  I put my 3 wood on the lawn infront of the clubhouse which while not recommended did give a great view of the green! 

A 3 3 start is always going to help your enjoyment of a course but from the 3rd onwards I was spellbound.  The Alps hole was probably my favourite and then to be able to cut the caddy short and say 'I got this one' before he explained how to play 4 was pretty cool too!

The Redan was probably an improved version of our Redan as much as it pains me to say it.  I much prefer to use the kicker before the green whereas our one is more of a feature on the green itself.  It was a bit of a mind f**k for me to have a reasonably breaking putt down the green from left to right though.  Ours is hardcore right to left as most of you will know but the green at NGLA has a reasonable left to right slope off the back of the crux bunker. (my ball was front left and the pin was just back of centre)

I suppose on the whole I was less blown away than say most US resident as the quiriness is slightly lost on me because I am so used to it.  I did grow up playing the 13th at North Berwick every night after school!  I did however marvel at CBMs interpretation of the Road hole and the Eden hole which I have played many times in their original guise.  The use of the bunker as the 'road' is one I also noticed at the 2nd hole at Maidstone the day before (can anyone clarify this is also inspired by 17 at TOC?)  Virtually every green had unbelievable movement and was TOC through and through.

While the quirkyness was less of a novelty for me than my US playing partners I did feel I could relate to the holes much better than they did.  Surely a testimony to what CBM was trying to achieve as he has taken from so many of the holes I grew up with.  In summation a 4 hour masterclass in all that is great about the links game I love. 

Above all though, very cool to see holes I know and love in 90 degrees!  As I walked from the tee of the 5th I could have been in Scotland if someone had asked.  Truly a wonderful place.

[Mike Sweeney]

Simon,

Thanks for your perspective. I always wondered if someone like you would think National to be some Myrtle Beachish copycat. Just curious if you got to play or see Shinnecock? More American, more unique ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Simon,

It would be nice to hear your thoughts on other holes, such as # 8, 11, 15, 16, 17 and 18

Thanks

[Bill_McBride]

Simon, nobody that I'm aware of has compared #3 NGLA ("Alps") to #14 ("Perfection") at North Berwick, obviously less the fronting bunker at NGLA.  Thoughts?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Simon I too prefer the Nationals redan. I can see your point on the quirkiness. It would be fun to hear more as well.

[Simon Holt]

Simon,

It would be nice to hear your thoughts on other holes, such as # 8, 11, 15, 16, 17 and 18

Thanks

Pat,

If I am really picky the only hole I didnt love was Long.  It was still a good hole but I didnt feel it was a stand out hole like some of the rest of the holes.

Bottle ( i really liked.  The option of going left or right reminded me a little of 9 here at North Berwick but much more demanding.  I went right and was just past the second bunker into the wind.  I think if I had the confidence to go left into the wind it would have given me a much better view of what lay ahead.  I loved the bunkering around the green here and kept well left top avoid that drop off.  The one thing I found annoying was was shot ended up a few inches shy of a collar of rough on the fringe which catch the putter on the way back.  My fault for putting it there but back home the grass is slightly finer in density so there is far less bounce effect as the club goes back through it.  Didnt want to chop down with a wedge so close to the green!

11 is a hole I would like to play again.  The green was similar to 16 at North Berwick but at a slightly different angle.  I believe however that this may have been at National before that huge swale appeared in the green at NB.  It was fun to hit over the road!  I think it was on this hole or 12 that the caddy pointed out MacDonalds house.

15, 16, 17, 18 I loved!  I dont usually show off about score but I birdied every one!  Never done that before and certainly didnt expect to.  What not to like about them!

15 (Narrows?) I was on the right hand side of the fairway and it is one of these holes that I can tell if I played again I would not pull off the shot I hit next.  Back pin, just right of centre- punchy 7 iron to 10 feet below the hole.  I got up there and realised why my caddy was so excited.  The green was one of the most impressive I have ever seen.  Huge slope (maybe the biggest I have ever seen) sloping back to front but almost like an turtle shell.  What I would expect some of the holes at Pinehurst No. 2 might be like.  I would probably have picked up more about the hole if my shot had ran over or didnt get up onto the plateau which my caddy assured me would happen 99 times out of 100.  It also reminded me of a hole at Pine Valley but my memory has gone blank to which hole.

16 (Punchbowl)  I loved the drive here.  Probably one of my favourites on the course.  The fairway undulations are some of the most dramatic I have seen anywhere on that scale.  You have a 10 yard margin of error and my error was to funnel down into the right hand bowl.  No view of the green let alone flag but the quality of turf is so good that you just trsut your allignment and fire away.  The green is a again fantastic.  There is a hole at Dunbar that has a similar green (13th).  I thought this hole might have been inspired by 9 at Hoylake but I am now not so sure after playing it.  I know CBM spent a lot of time there.  Thoughts???

17  Beautful looking hole for sure.  14 at Maidstone the day before may have been the most stunning par 3 on the trip but this wins the par 4 prize.  I hit 3 wood down the left at the table top bunker but to be honest when I looked back from the green I think if you can hit a long accurate shot the place to be is past the fairway buunkers on the far right of the fairway.  This little plateau gives you a full view of the green and that is the way I would try and play it if I had another opportunity.  I loved the table top bunker- really unique.

18.  Tough uphill into the wind but an absolute cracker.  Drive at the right edge of the left hand bunker to use the contours to feed back into the middle then a smashed 3 wood up to 40 yards short.  I was really full of adrenaline at this point with the clubhouse to the left and the sound bay to the right.  Loved the infinity green and really enjoyed playing a running 7 iron shot to bring my little bit of Scotland to Long Island.  Glad I didnt go over the back!! A wonderful, wonderful course.

[Simon Holt]

Simon, nobody that I'm aware of has compared #3 NGLA ("Alps") to #14 ("Perfection") at North Berwick, obviously less the fronting bunker at NGLA.  Thoughts?

Bill- I played Perfection yesterday and was thinking about that.  What I didnt even factor in on my second shot was the bunkers over the ridge on the Alps hole.  I was middle of the fairway and the pin was back right on that plateau so I hit 5 iron left of the pole and ended up just off the green at the back.  It is a much harder green to hit it close than Perfection but I think the tee shot is more important at Perfection in terms of attacking the pin.  At the Alps hole you have to be on the fairway obviously but the length means that you are always relying on a bounce given the club you are approaching with.  At Perfection the bunkers are in front of the ridge so you know as long as you dump one over the top (unless into a howling East wind) it is always going to run down to the green.  Most of the time it will actually run through so you are better to fly it to the green and land on the flat front with hopefully a little spin to hold the green.

At 14 at North Berwick you pretty much have to be in the semi rough on the left of the fairway to get a good angle to most pins, albeit with little control out of the semi!!!  The extreme left hand side of the fairway opens up the back right pin in the loosest sense of the phrase 'opens up'.  I have played that hole thousands of time and I would think I would have to do the same on the 3rd at NGLA before I worked it out.  Thats probably why it was my favourite hole....I love holes that make you scratch your head or grin when you think 'you got me!'

One could probably say that both holes are a bit of a lottery on the second shot.  I hit it low as you might expect so an uphill shot coming into the 3rd at National hits at a hard running traj on that downslope and is always going to run through the green.  You perhaps need to hit a much higher traj and hope for a good bounce!

Sound fair enough??

[Simon Holt]

Simon I too prefer the Nationals redan. I can see your point on the quirkiness. It would be fun to hear more as well.

Tiger- I had probably my longest ever look at Redan yesterday as my first time after playing NGLA.  I have always loved the Redan but thought at times the kicker being on the green is little too dramatic.  The big kicker before the green on NGLA means that it takes some speed of the shot before releasing onto the green.

The problem, albeit a really fun one, at NB is that quite often while trying to play the traditionally right to left shot to the front right portion of the green you can land just short and right on a little plateau and be left with he hardest putt in the world from just off the green front right. 

I dont know....writing this I am now undecided.  Maybe that is what makes NBs Redan so great.  If you dont get it right there are so many wonderful shots to be played.  There is certainly more awkward lies at NB if you miss.  Bunkers are harder, really hard from the valley before the green, DEAD if you stick in the rough on the back of the 16th tee (6 inches deep, servere downslope with a delicate shot over a huge bunker)

If fact my heart strings are starting to pull me back!  I still think NGLAs looks better off the tee IMHO.  Great backdrop.

[Keith OHalloran]

Simon, if I am reading this right, you made (at least) 6 birdies on your first trip to The National?  Did you take the course record with you when you left?

[Simon Holt]

I would love to know what the course record is!! 

Alas, it is that sort of course, birdies and then a few doubles!! 

3,3,5,3,6,3,7,5,6
5,4,4,3,4,3,3,3,4   to shoot 2 over.  I think that is what you would describe as an all or nothing day.

I would love to give it a go again but not be pre-occupied with photos and looking out for all the things I had heard growing up.  I missed a 4 footer on 14 to have 9 3s on the card.....one of those rare, wonderful and enjoyably frustrating days.

[Bill_McBride]

I would love to know what the course record is!! 

Alas, it is that sort of course, birdies and then a few doubles!! 

3,3,5,3,6,3,7,5,6
5,4,4,3,4,3,3,3,4   to shoot 2 over.  I think that is what you would describe as an all or nothing day.

I would love to give it a go again but not be pre-occupied with photos and looking out for all the things I had heard growing up.  I missed a 4 footer on 14 to have 9 3s on the card.....one of those rare, wonderful and enjoyably frustrating days.

-3 33 coming home, that's quite a back nine!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great thread Simon et al.

I would love to know what the course record is!!  

Alas, it is that sort of course, birdies and then a few doubles!!  

3,3,5,3,6,3,7,5,6
5,4,4,3,4,3,3,3,4   to shoot 2 over.  I think that is what you would describe as an all or nothing day.

I would love to give it a go again but not be pre-occupied with photos and looking out for all the things I had heard growing up.  I missed a 4 footer on 14 to have 9 3s on the card.....one of those rare, wonderful and enjoyably frustrating days.

-3 33 coming home, that's quite a back nine!

Simon you asked me the other day what BUDA was?  I’d just like to add a very big welcome to the GB&I team.
 

[Tony_Muldoon]

11 is a hole I would like to play again.  The green was similar to 16 at North Berwick but at a slightly different angle.  I believe however that this may have been at National before that huge swale appeared in the green at NB.  It was fun to hit over the road!  I think it was on this hole or 12 that the caddy pointed out MacDonalds house.

 

Simon what can you tell us about when the 16th green at NB changed to the fantastic double plateau?  We’ve discussed this many times before and I must admit I was surprised to find this old short thread in which Neil Crafter says it was the work of Simpson.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4662.0/   

This thread show’s what it looked like prior to the Changes and seems oblivious to the above one.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38511.0/


If you can add anything it’s probably best to do it on one of the other threads.
Thanks Tony

PS Did Simpson ever visit the USA? How ironic if it could be implied one of the most iconic greens in Scotland was inspired by NGLA. 

[Bill_McBride]

Simon I too prefer the Nationals redan. I can see your point on the quirkiness. It would be fun to hear more as well.

Tiger- I had probably my longest ever look at Redan yesterday as my first time after playing NGLA.  I have always loved the Redan but thought at times the kicker being on the green is little too dramatic.  The big kicker before the green on NGLA means that it takes some speed of the shot before releasing onto the green.

The problem, albeit a really fun one, at NB is that quite often while trying to play the traditionally right to left shot to the front right portion of the green you can land just short and right on a little plateau and be left with he hardest putt in the world from just off the green front right. 

I dont know....writing this I am now undecided.  Maybe that is what makes NBs Redan so great.  If you dont get it right there are so many wonderful shots to be played.  There is certainly more awkward lies at NB if you miss.  Bunkers are harder, really hard from the valley before the green, DEAD if you stick in the rough on the back of the 16th tee (6 inches deep, servere downslope with a delicate shot over a huge bunker)

If fact my heart strings are starting to pull me back!  I still think NGLAs looks better off the tee IMHO.  Great backdrop.

In 2005 en route to the Open at St Andrews, my wife and another couple and I played the West Links.  (The ladies absolutely loved the firm turf and the funny caddies!)

On the Redan, we played quite differently.  I hit a solid 6-iron just on the right front and found my ball 15' left of the pin, hole high.

She whacked a 3-wood along the ground that trundled up between the little bunkers and disappeared onto the green.  She found her ball a foot inside mine.

That's just one of the things that's so great about that hole, so many ways to play it.

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