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Jason Topp

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An interesting grassing approach
« on: June 07, 2010, 12:02:48 PM »
I played an event at a nearby public course that had an interesting approach to grassing its fairways.  Most of the fairways were bluegrass, which is typical for most lower cost courses in the area.  However, certain ideal landing zones were maintained as bent.  It looked a bit strange but played just fine. 

I have no idea whether the approach saves money on maintenence.  If it does, I thought it worked pretty well from a playability standpoint. 

Morgan Clawson

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 12:09:32 PM »
Which course was it?

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 12:11:57 PM »
sounds like they are maintaining more than 18 greens or
a way to penalize the player who can't hit the new interim greens
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jason Topp

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 12:19:13 PM »
sounds like they are maintaining more than 18 greens or
a way to penalize the player who can't hit the new interim greens

It is not really a penalty.  The bluegrass fairways were fine. 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 12:20:09 PM »
Which course was it?

Fox Hollow near Rogers, Minnesota.  If you look at it on Google Maps it looks pretty strange.

Tim Nugent

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 12:51:11 PM »
Not a new idea.  We tried it back in the early/mid 80's.  It was a way to minimize costs - maint and construction (as only the bent areas got double-row irrig).  The problem comes in when a) the bluegrass fwy is maintained at rough heights and b) when you set the far end at 300 yds when tour pors are averaging 275 and low HC'rs start compalining that they hit a great shot, right down the middle and were no lomnger "in the fairway".
Coasting is a downhill process

Bradley Anderson

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 01:43:49 PM »
Tim,

Are you refering to Golf Club of Illinois?

Whenever people talk about reducing the cost of maintenance I always refer to that golf course. My assistant took the superintendents job there and I just could not believe how cheaply that golf course could be maintained. A lot of it you have to attribute to the fact that there are no trees - what an amazing difference it is to maintain a golf hole with no trees. 

I believe at the time it was built they called those bentgrass areas "target golf"? I always enjoyed playing there too.

I think the management company that took it over stoped grooming the bluegrass between the target areas on the right intervals and they became rough. But then later they began maintaining them at the same level as the fairways, and of course the Poa moved in and it became just more fairway turf to keep alive.

It was a very cool concept that still has great merit to it.

Tim Nugent

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 01:53:11 PM »
Brad - Ding, Ding, Ding - Yes it was GCI I was referring to.  We built it for $1.7m (including $350k for a deep well).  The faux-links (Prairie Links)  design was a direct response to budget constraints.  Trees would have added another $300k (plus you'ld have to mow around them).  Also, small, non-USGA greens.

BTW - it was the 1st course I was in charge of building - we didn't have a GC or GC builder.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 02:42:31 PM »
It is not really a penalty.  The bluegrass fairways were fine. 

If they are fine what is the bent for?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 02:48:34 PM »
Tim,

Was that the old Frenzer 1:1:1 mix you used on those greens? They were pretty good greens right out of the box as I recall.

Another cutting edge thing you did with that course was grassing with fescue. That was the first modern course in Chicago to do that I think. And it worked until the management company came in and hacked it all back.

Its too bad that you had places out there where the land planner didn't give you just a little bit wider of a corridor to work with because there are so many great concepts on that course that were just a bit squeezed in places.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 02:55:44 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Jason Topp

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 03:02:05 PM »
It is not really a penalty.  The bluegrass fairways were fine. 

If they are fine what is the bent for?

A better looking surface cut at a shorter height.  Most players would prefer to hit off of bent but I would guess the difference in actual shot results is minimal if it exists at all. 

RJ_Daley

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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 03:19:13 PM »
Did we miss something in GCA.com discussions of architects?  World renown, and trail blazer?  C&W have him early on as a designer of a reversable 9 holer that can be played backwards and forwards.   Interesting....
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jason Topp

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Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 03:21:53 PM »
Very odd looking bunker design as well:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Rogers,+MN&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.252269,56.162109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Rogers,+Hennepin,+Minnesota&ll=45.22129,-93.569006&spn=0.001749,0.005472&t=h&z=18

Thanks for that Dick.  I really like the bunkers even though they look strange.  They are pretty deep for fairway bunkers and so they are to be avoided.  Nonetheless the strange shapes create some randomness that gives you hope with a wayward shot.   

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 03:34:46 PM »
Did we miss something in GCA.com discussions of architects?  World renown, and trail blazer?  C&W have him early on as a designer of a reversable 9 holer that can be played backwards and forwards.   Interesting....

Joel Goldstrand is an interesting designer.  The quality of his original designs varies tremendously.  His original practice was focused on creating affordable courses for a low cost.  Thus, many people play golf for a reasonable price because of his work. 

In the late 80's/early 90's he became well known in Minnesota for The Pines at Grandview Lodge and the Links at Northfork, both of which are solid designs.  From there, Goldstrand's courses got very quirky - some things worked well and many others were just strange.  He had a fondness for trees in the middle of fairways, oddly shaped greens and blind layup holes.  He designed several reversable nine hole courses.  He also got renovation work on some golden age era courses.  I think most on this site would consider that work a crime.

I think he does not quite get the credit he deserves.  He designs outstanding tough par fours, interesting short par threes and a lot of reachable par fives.  His courses usually follow the land, even if some simple dirt moving could improve the visuals of a hole. 

One thing you cannot say about his courses is that they are bland.  You will either love them, hate them or be confused by them. 


Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An interesting grassing approach
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2010, 03:35:37 PM »
Tim,

Was that the old Frenzer 1:1:1 mix you used on those greens? They were pretty good greens right out of the box as I recall.
Yes - Frenzer supplied it, although can't remember but i think it was an 85-15, no pea stone and only a 'Wick and and Smile" drainage.
Another cutting edge thing you did with that course was grassing with fescue. That was the first modern course in Chicago to do that I think. And it worked until the management company came in and hacked it all back.
Yeah, they wanted to make it "easier".  Amazing how management companies can find excuses to dumb-down designs.  Now they have more to mow (and I wonder if they had to add irrigation?)
Its too bad that you had places out there where the land planner didn't give you just a little bit wider of a corridor to work with because there are so many great concepts on that course that were just a bit squeezed in places.
Not only was it tigh to start with but we actually lost some land in the middle of construction (the double green par 3 which caused me to move the tees back on the long par 5 for safety - we never had it that long originally ;D)

RJ - who? Goldstrand?  BTW, we had some weird bunkers like that at GCI only they were long and skinney - Dick called then sand snakes - used then like a dry stream bed.  Plus methinks those at Fox Hollow might look different on the ground than from 1,000 ft.
Coasting is a downhill process

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