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Peter Pallotta

Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« on: June 03, 2010, 10:03:43 PM »
I think that 90% of the courses I play don't mow their fairways short enough and water those fairways too much. And I think that of those courses, 90% would immediately become better tests and more fun and interesting courses/designs if this wasn't the case. Even with modest courses of modest architectural goals, short, dry fairways will enhance the design -- in fact, I'd say they will actually create the design (since a ball that keeps running off line is going to run into places that bring new angles and new shot requirements into play, every day.)  I guess all of that is obvious. Maybe also obvious - though I just thought about it -- is the fact that active architecture (and by that I mean nothing negative, i.e. I don't mean over-active architecture or busy architecture) has come to the forefront in North America because of the schism between designers and maintenance people; because of the simple fact that designers long ago learned that they would not be in charge of the day-to-day maintenance, and thus that they could not design a course that factored in the ideal (or their ideal) maintenance regime.  So what they did was to design active courses, courses that manifested all sorts and manner of interesting shot demands and all sorts of fun choices and all kinds of architectural principles -- and this because they needed to ensure that the course would appear to be (and hopefully still in fact be) a quality design, and that it would suggest to golfers the need to play various clubs and kinds of shots throughout the round even if that need was actually quite muted because of the (eventual and day-in-day-out) maintenance conditions.  And conversely, what went out the window was simple design (and here I don't mean anything overly positive, i.e. I don't mean brilliantly subtle, or understatedly minimal), the kind of design that was architecturally sound but didn't look it, the kind of design that used a lot of doglegs and had a lot of run up greens open from one side or the other, the kind that architects built before it became crystal clear that their wishes for how the course should be maintained would never be granted.  In short, I think that for better or worse, it has become virtually certain that the kind of average English courses that Sean Arble profilles here will never be built in North America, not because architects here are dumb and talentless but on the contrary, because they are smart and very talented, i.e. because they are smart enough to know that no matter what any owner tells them, the course won't be maintained the way architects want it, and talented enough to turn this negative into a positive by designing active courses.

Peter  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 10:08:23 PM by PPallotta »

John Moore II

Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 10:34:01 PM »
Well, I think you are correct that most courses aren't maintained to what we think are ideal conditons. But I will disagree that the fairways aren't cut short enough, unless you play 90% of your golf on below average courses. Most courses will maintain the fairways at 3/8 to 1/2". Bear in mind that the typical fairway mower can only be set to 3/8" minimun height. Its just that when the fairways are very moist, the grass seems taller than it really is.

As for the ground game, that went away because as a rule, golfers figured out that the aerial game it much better and easier to play. Unless of course you play in a lot of wind. Certainly then, ground is much better. But how many inland courses get a lot of wind? You can't design a course to be played in a way that is not used anymore.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 11:46:42 PM »
Peter, There's also a disease issue with over watering. Requiring more inputs, more expense, resulting in higher green fees.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2010, 08:30:33 AM »

In the end it is the consumer who dictates course design and conditions, just like many other industries.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

TEPaul

Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2010, 09:39:37 AM »
"Even with modest courses of modest architectural goals, short, dry fairways will enhance the design -- in fact, I'd say they will actually create the design (since a ball that keeps running off line is going to run into places that bring new angles and new shot requirements into play, every day.)  I guess all of that is obvious."



Peter:

Actually that is obvious on courses that are dry and firm. One slight fallacy, however, is that the grass must be kept very short. If the ground is really firm short grass is not really all that necessary to promote a large degree of bounce and roll-out----eg it can happen almost as effectively on shortish rough areas.

The other thing that truly highlights challenge with firm and fast conditions "through the green" is when a course has a pretty good degree of tilt either sideways or up and down "through the green."

This was all proven to me in the very hot dry summer of 1999 in Ireland when I played the little Mallow GC in Mallow Ireland every morning at daybreak for a solid week. It was very tilting in all kinds of ways and I have never had so much fun and challenge on a fairly simple golf course. The strategic challenge was just wonderful and took a very high degree of imagination in just planning effective shots.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2010, 10:30:56 AM »

In the end it is the consumer who dictates course design and conditions, just like many other industries.

Let's not confuse commercialism with quality.

The mindset of building for the consumer, instead of for the love of this sport, has kept bankruptcy lawyers busy for the last 30 years.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2010, 11:41:26 AM »
Thanks gents. I was mostly just lamenting the fact that the 'average English course' won't be built here in North America, and speculating on the reasons why. "Active" architecture can be and often is terrific, but that doesn't mean it should be the only game in town.  Maybe "simple" architecture stands a chance only if/when the architect-superintendent team comes to the fore.

Peter

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 05:03:57 PM »

In the end it is the consumer who dictates course design and conditions, just like many other industries.

Let's not confuse commercialism with quality.

The mindset of building for the consumer, instead of for the love of this sport, has kept bankruptcy lawyers busy for the last 30 years.

If you build for the love of the sport and ignore the consumer there would be even more bankruptcies.






Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 08:03:03 AM »
"I was mostly just lamenting the fact that the 'average English course' won't be built here in North America, and speculating on the reasons why. "Active" architecture can be and often is terrific, but that doesn't mean it should be the only game in town.  Maybe "simple" architecture stands a chance only if/when the architect-superintendent team comes to the fore."

Interesting. The topic has come up before in a slightly different context. On a thread from several years ago it was Doak, I think, who said that too many modern American architects lack the courage to be subtle. Or maybe the term he used was understated.

Doak nailed it. There is no question that "active" (those are scare quotes) architecture has taken over the American vernacular. I think it is partly due to over zealous maintenance practices. Heck, if you are spending $4MM on an irrigation system, you are sure as hell going to use it to the max.

But there are also economic forces at work in the US that have less relevance in the UK. There are more pressures imposed on architects by real estate developers in the US. Developers demand that their new courses have a wow factor. They want to sell home lots, cash out and hit the road. The long term architectural quality of the course is of little significance to them.

Which is why the Mike Youngs and their less "active" designs lose out to the Tom Fazios on new development courses (or at least back in the day when there were such things), even though I believe that Mike is the more talented architect. Fazio and others have perfected the wow thing. They've made it a brand that sells. They are now rich and famous. But I will be interested to see what happens to these "active" designs over the next several years when they can't be maintained in the way initially intended. Mike's courses, on the other hand, should pull through quite nicely.

Bob      

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 08:11:51 AM »
A member told me the other day they expect us to have the course in a "pristine" condition, use all the fertilizers, no cutting back, and water until it is green and lovely again.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Bruce Hospes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2010, 08:36:06 AM »
If members are footing the bill for maintaining a golf course, it should be done to their standards.  I agree that overall we tend to focus too much on the look of a course instead of the playability, but if a superintendent has directions from above, it's in his best interest to follow them. 

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2010, 08:55:31 AM »
Bruce -

No one is suggesting that supers maintain their courses against the wishes of the membership. That is - as you note - a job killer.

The issue is broader perceptions of what makes for good architecture and maintenance. I hope that some supers will push their membership to rethink the American common wisdom about those things. But they should not be expected to fall on their swords.

Bob     

Peter Pallotta

Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2010, 10:57:09 AM »
Bob's a good friend - he manages to draw out something interesting. Yes - the last thing I wanted was to criticize supers, or to get into a debate about what the public wants maintenance wise. To borrow from Bob's post - I think the courage to be simple is harder than ever to come by, and this because of the design-maintenance schism. It would be foolhardy, not brave, to design a course that doesn't rely (or appear to rely) on a whole range of features - even good features well integrated. Without the appropriate maintenance (which the architect can't control), that kind of course would look and play blandly.

Peter   

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2010, 06:18:10 PM »
I'd be interested to know what the percentages are for members asking for their course to look a certain way vs. play a certain way.

Is it possible that golf has become less fun since aesthetics took the priority? Has the super always been so customer service oriented vs. doing what he/ she thought was best for the course? Did the old school UK greenkeepers always do the kings bidding, or was there a power shift when it became normal for greenkeepers to relocate for a new job?

Sorry Peter...too many questions that I hope aren't derailers to your original thought.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2010, 06:45:11 PM »


I'd be interested to know what the percentages are for members asking for their course to look a certain way vs. play a certain way.

Is it possible that golf has become less fun since aesthetics took the priority?



To the first question,my guess would be that most members make little-to-no distinction between look and play.And,I think the reason has a lot to do with your second question.

At least in my part of the world,a large percentage of members started playing golf later in life.They've never experienced the fun of watching a golf ball roll.They never played at muni's.They never played pre- wall to wall irrigation.They only started playing because they could afford a country club membership and figured it was good for business.

Look at their frame of reference--television,corporate golf outings,resorts.To a lot of these members,any golf course less than emerald green is poorly maintained.They "know" this because all the really good places they've seen/played are this way.

One anecdote--a couple of years ago we tried to "brown" our zoysia fairways.We got a couple of imperfect areas which we knew would happen and were willing to accept.I received 4 phone calls the following Monday from members wanting to know why the Super allowed the fairways to die.

After a while,it's just not worth arguing.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2010, 09:19:47 PM »
Joe, Jeff - yes to the questions and JM's good points. To be black-and-white about it (which immediately makes suspect what I'm going to say): if anyone wants what I've been calling 'simple' architecture -- if anyone wants those courses built, and then play like intended -- there can only be very minimal irrigation put it, or none at all.  That would simplify architecture in a hurry. And maybe -- as as often been mentioned here re sustainable golf and water restrictions etc -- that's the way we're going whether folks like it or not.

Peter

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Active Design and The Maintenance Schism
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 06:29:32 PM »
The difficulty in creating a design-maintenance meld relying minimal inputs is the weather must cooperate.  As soon as the weather lets us down and folks play on a scrappy course for 3, 4 or 5 weeks of prime summer time they begin to wonder why.  The first question is why hasn't the water been turned on to help growth?  Folks don't really want a course dictated by weather and seasons and that is also true for most in GB&I.  Yet, for bents and fescues thrive this is exactly what MUST happen.  This recent trend of less input which I believe will continue to grow is not well loved by most because courses are susceptible to weather and thus poor conditioning.  This will be an interesting summer in the UK.  Courses are generally in poor condition and the late winter is blamed.  Yet we have had some fantastic growing weather if courses were fed and watered as in the old days.  Golfers know it and question what is going on.  For the backers of "simple maintenance", the downturn of the economy may be the saving grace.  The question can always be turned into how much extra would pay for A, B and C?  After experiencing dues rises these past 5 years of what for many clubs is 25-35% many members are not interested in talking about raising the dues more. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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