Carnoustie The ultimate test?

[ed_getka]

In a conversation recently with Jim Finegan (wrote "Blasted Heaths... ", Emerald Fairways...", and the Pine Valley history), he stated that Carnoustie is the ultimate championship course. Not the aberration that the last Open was played on, but the way the course normally plays. JF feels Carnoustie surpasses even the championship tracks here in the U.S., as the ultimate examination of ones golf game. I haven't played the course so I don't have an opinion, but what do you well-travelled golfers who have played it think?

[Bob_Huntley]

Carnoustie, to paraphrase Dan Jenkins, is not Cap d'Antibes. Everything about the course and town seems grey. However, when properly set up for a championship it is a brutal test of golf and quite possibly one of the most difficult on which to score. The final par three, the 16th, was never reached by Bobby Locke in his last appearance there. He always used a spoon short for a chip on and one putt.

The travesty that the then superintendent allowed to happen in Lawrie's win, should have banished him for life from making golf decisions. However, in their own peculiar way the British establishment must have giggled that they produced a winner of their own, that they rewarded him with an OBE.

[Pete Lavallee]

The best desciption I can think of for Carnoustie is "tough but fair". The course is built on sandy ground right by the sea, but unlike most other British links, the place is rather flat, with an abscense of dunes. Therefore there is only one blind shot on the course, the second shot into the first green. Perhaps this is why many Americans consider it a brutal but fair test. Bob is right, the last four holes are tough. Plan on hitting driver into the par 3 16th if it is into the wind.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

If the wind machine is running at Carnoustie, than undoubtedly it is one of the most brutal courses around. (particularly in the non-prevailing East wind) Despite what has been written about the '99 Open by the press simpletons, the wind machine never really cranked up at that tournament that week. Had there been a strong wind that week, 300+ might have gotten the grits.

I wouldn't blame all on the Sir John Philp for the '99 setup. The Royal and Ancient boys knew what was up, even if some of them feigned differently. I bet they even had a few private giggles of joy over it.

[Ran Morrissett]

The course doesn't require enough thought to be deemed "the ultimate test" but then again I have no idea what Mr. Finegan's definition of that phrase is.

Tee to green Carnoustie is a brute, a beast, a ... you name it but there aren't enough shots around the greens to fully expose the twitchy man's failing nerve system ala RM West, St. Andrews, Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Winged Foot West and Pine Valley.

In fact, somewhat like The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Carnoustie gets short changed a bit by the continually focus on its difficulty. For instance, a lot of attention is always devoted to its last three holes but aren't the 14th ( a reachable three shotter if the risk/reward shot over the Spectacles is successful) and the 15th the two finest holes on that side?

Is another Open slated for there? Perhaps they'll get that course set-up right  :-/  as the course deserves better.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I find it to be the toughest test in golf. There is not one hole that does not test you to the limit. Finegan is as close to Bernard Darwin as we have now on course evaluation. I love the place and hated what the R&A did to it on the last Open. that is a course that deserves a real champion.

[Richard_Goodale]

Of the various Open courses I've played I think Shinnecock is the only one that comes close to Carnoustie in terms of a complete test of golf--very much including including thought.

[John_McMillan]

I'm not exacatly certain what people mean when they use the phrase "ultimate test" about a golf course.  I suspect that they're using it to refer to a course which is over-the-top in its resistance to scoring, and are looking for a label which justifies that approach to golf design.  

To me, "ultimate test" indicates a balance between all areas of a golfer's skill package - power game, finesse game, discipline, mental game, strategy.  There are some courses whose design has this balance, but I've never heard the "ultimate test" phrase applied to them - so I guess we'll have to come up with a new label for a course which really is an "ultimate test."

[ed_getka]

Not having seen Carnoustie, what makes it so demanding? Are you punished severely for missing fairways and greens, or is it just difficult to break par? How well is the short game tested or are up and downs unlikely? The wind obviously plays a big part in defending the course, but how much easier is the course without wind?

[Paul Richards]

Carnoustie is as tough as any golf course I have ever seen.

That is, until technology makes it obsolete.

Ed - when you play the 250-yard 16th, followed by the
450-yard 17th with the snaking creek, to finish against the
450-yard 18th, you've seen one of the greatest finishes
on earth!

[Bob_Huntley]

Gary Smith:

An OBE does not a knight make. He is not Sir John Philp, still a mister.

Bob

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Bob,

Sorry, I don't run with the Knight and OBE crowd, so I'm ignorant of the rules.

I do have friends in low places.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Gary Smith:

From what I've seen in a crowded lifetime, your friends may well be a whole lot more reliable than the Knight set.

Best wishes.

[Tom]

Not having seen Carnoustie, what makes it so demanding?

Ed

In short I would say length - an issue which is exacerbated by the wind.  By my recollection you are normally hitting long irons or woods into 2,9,10,15,16,17,18 - all par 3s & 4s.  Mid- irons into 4,5,7 and possibly 11 dependant on wind.

Its just relentless !!!  Ran got it right when he said that chipping is not difficult.  Most greens are fairly flat with plenty of room around them.

Tom

[Paul Richards]

Taxing, strenuous, and relentless are apt descriptions
of Carnoustie!

Nasty also applies!!

[Bryan_Pennington]

While not an expert by any stretch, my group played Troon in a stiff wind with high rough, Muirfield in medium winds with moderate rough, and Carnoustie in medium to light wind with modest rough, and I believe Carnoustie was the hardest by far.  You have no break from tee to green and hitting it in the fairway is no bargin.  The fairways were the hardest/firmest I have ever played from.  Imagine hitting the ball off of the pavement or landing the ball on the pavement and trying to keep it from running into the rough.   While the chipping is not the toughest, the firm tight fairway lies will chill your bones if you need to go over a greenside bunker.  We only played 18 holes the day we played Carnoustie and for that I was glad, I do not believe I could have played another 18 after getting beat up at Carnoustie.  All said, very hard, but I would play it again in a minute.

[ed_getka]

Thanks for the input guys. The brutality of Carnoustie seems to be a given, but one more question. What kind of shot (other than long) are you playing into the greens? Are you trying to thread long irons/woods through miniscule openings, are a variety of shots called for, or is it just a marathon slog? Also, how is the bunkering, automatic shot dropped or possible to advance the ball occasionally?

What course in the U.S. would you consider the most exacting test a la Carnoustie?

[Doug Wright]

Ed,

Although my recollection is fading, and we played it as our first round in Scotland after driving nonstop from Gatwick the day before (I don't recommend this), I recall Carnoustie as a lot of longish holes made more difficult by a two club cross wind, which is typical at least in my experience in Scotland. The green entrances on the longer holes and the par threes generally were pretty open, and I don't recall anything unfair about the course at all. I can't remember the fairway bunkering very well, except for the very neat Spectacles on the par 5 14th, but I don't think the bunkers were the problem. The rough, though not anything like the Open, was very difficult to play from.  The greens did not have big contours, but some subtle ones that made reading the greens difficult.

Re comparable US courses I think of Spyglass after the first five ocean holes--a long tough slog through the trees.

All The Best,      

[Yancey_Beamer]

I don't remember a great amount of slang used in Scotland when referring to a course.There was one exception. Carnasty. Difficult,but I loved it.I was told Ernie Ells called it the most difficult tournament course on earth.
Yancey

[Stan Dodd]

Ed,
I find it interesting that J Finegan would say that... in his book he did not like the Cahmpionsip course at all.  He prefered the Burnside course of the 3 at Carnoustie.
Carnoustie is the longest most demanding course I have ever played.  Every shot tests your accuracy as well as distance.  It is a workingmans course and town.  No glitz just a dour old course that slaps you back to reality when you start thinking you can play a little.
I hit the 16th with a Driver .
The fairway bunker is typical of Scotland take your penalty and hope to make it up later.  Braids Bunker on #2 was particularly Carnasty to me.
 Spectacles plays as a 465 yard par 4 from the regular mens tees.  It is a much easier hole as 485 yard par 5 from the
championship tee.

[ed_getka]

Whitey,
 When I talked to JF about his book, he told me to tear out what he had previously written, as it no longer applied to the way the course is nowadays.
Too bad about Barona, see you at Rustic.

[Dan King]

whitey writes:
Spectacles plays as a 465 yard par 4 from the regular mens tees.  It is a much easier hole as 485 yard par 5 from the
championship tee.

Interesting trick, make a hole twenty yards longer and making it easier. How do you do that? Or are you playing some sort of game against par?

In all my trips to Scotland, I've only played Carnoustie once. I've had no desire to go back. Long and boring, it also reminds me of Spyglass, one of my least favorite American courses. Spyglass starts well and Carnoustie ends well. We just need somewhere to play the middle six and you might just have a real golf course.

Untimate Championship course and tough but fair, two phrases that instantly mean I won't enjoy the course.

"Carnoustie is like an ugly, old hag who speaks the truth no matter how painful. But it's only when you add up your score, you hear exactly what she thinks of you."
 --Tom Watson

[Paul Richards]

Carnasty.

Ugly old hag.

Awesome!

[Stan Dodd]

Yeah Dan,
It is the game against the number.  When it says Par 5 it seems easier to lay up short of the Spectacles but when it  says 4 the urge to try and get there in "regulation is just a Sirens song.  As I play more golf in Scotland maybe  I will become "truly disciplined" on the course, until then courses like Carnoustie will exact their own kind of discipline.  Great quote "old Hag", perfect decription.

[Paul Daley]

ED:

I agree with JF's assertion. I 've played Carnoustie many times in "normal" non-Open conditions. It is incredible. It is not my favourite links, can't compete with RCD, Bally Old and R.Portrush, but it is the best "championship" qaulity course I know of. Away from tourney's ... people don't realise just how great it is.