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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
For all you Robert White fans out there, here's a chance to play this formerly private course:

http://www.golfincmagazine.com/news/sales-news/harkers-hollow-nj-reopens-public-course

http://www.harkershollow.com/history.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
More on Robert White below.  Pretty darn interesting.
Course is only an hour or so from me.  Who's in?

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/articletemplate.php?art=scottishexiles_footsoldiers.htm


Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interesting to read more about Mr. White.   Chevy Chase Club has (had) a routing plan done by R. White in 1948 I think.  The plan a was very simple line drawing to show possible hole re-routings if the Club were to sell road frontage land on Wisconsin Ave.  The rumor was that deal would have given them enough cash to rebuild and keep 18 holes on current site and purchase a large piece of undeveloped land in Potomac, MD.  The deal fell apart at some point but I saw the plan.  Being that Mr. was a Scot it might have helped him that the Super at CCC was Dick Watson, also a Scot.

Michael Blake

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Just pasting the text from my above link:



Scottish Exiles - The Foot Soldiers
by Frank Boumphrey
There is a poignancy surpassing pain that attaches to a man who does not die in the country of his birth. (Anonymous)

  
The Scottish exiles who flocked to America at the turn of the 19C put an indelible stamp upon the game. Although Golf in America, unlike in it's Scottish homeland, was predominantly a game for the rich and influential, it was the lowly Scottish Golf professionals, in military parlance 'the grunts', who kept the whole thing together. In any new club it was the professional who not only kept the shop and made and repaired the clubs, but he was also the chief evangelist; the repository of golf lore; the arbiter of what was and was not done; the greenkeeper/golf superintendent; all this as well as being the teacher of the game rudiments to members and being the trainer of caddies. Indeed it is not too much to say that the way we view the game today can be directly related to the collective genius of these early Scots foot soldiers.

This is illustrated most clearly in the career of Robert White. Although he won no major tournament, indeed he was an 'unspectacular' player, he could well lay claim - although his natural modesty would have prevented this - to be one of the most influential men ever in American golf.

Robert White - Early Years
Robert White had been a school teacher in his native St. Andrews and came over to the United States in 1894. He obviously found that instructing novice adult golfers was more congenial and rewarding - and probably better paying - than pedagogy, and quickly found work at the Myopia Country Club. From there he went to Cincinnati Golf Club, then Louisville, then in 1902 to Ravisloe in Chicago where he stayed until 1914.

White had been laying out golf courses since his arrival in the States. It would be probably stretching the truth to call him an architect at this early stage of his career, although later on he put his stamp on many fine courses. However he was a very knowledgeable green keeper; knew his game from top to bottom; and had a fine eye for for any 'lie of the land' as a potential golf hole. His fee for laying out a 9 hole course was $25, and it took him a morning. After walking the property he would decide on 9 tee locations and nine green locations, and he would probably also suggest the location of a few bunkers. Also included in his fee was instruction to some local farmer (put into writing should they fail to negotiate his Scottish brogue) about mowing the greens and fairways, and some suggestions on how to dig out the bunkers. He would inform the clubs founders where they could buy mowing machines for greens and fairways, and give the names and addresses of some seed merchants who could provide the Bent grass mixes suitable for greens.

The chances are that the founders would also ask him to recommend a professional. Robert was a good judge of character and quite impartial. He would happily endorse any clean and competent Scottish immigrant even if he didn't come from his home town of St. Andrews! In 1902 Robert White had helped found a society of Golf professionals in Illinois - the second association of professional golfers in the world (the British PGA was founded in 1901) - and was also appointed their president. He proved to be a fine administrator, and was much respected by his fellow professionals. Members of the PGA as they called themselves paid a $2 annual fee and they also organized various competitions and meets. While in Chicago Bob White was instrumental in two important advances in American golf - professional club making and professional greenkeeping.

During the long winter months, professional golf course business was slow, so the professionals under White's guidance organized themselves into a group to manufacture and market golf clubs, The Professional Golf Company. They adapted old clubs to 'new' world conditions and also designed new ones suitable for the different conditions to be found on American courses. They made fine clubs, but unfortunately their business skills were not up to their club making skills, and the business folded in a few years. However they had shown that what was good for the 'old' world was not necessarily good for the 'new', and they had also set the scene for professional club endorsement in America.

Most golf courses had been laid out on land that was either marginal or unsuitable for farming. Unfortunately this also meant that the land was also barely suitable for growing grass or for the production of good golf turf, and the state of many courses, including Ravisloe, was deemed unsatisfactory. Robert White determined to do something about it. During the Winter months he started attending 'farmers classes' at the University of Wisconsin, and soon made himself an expert on grass and turf management. With his new knowledge, and the manure from the close to hand Chicago stock yards, he was able to revitalize many local courses. His successes also enabled him to spread the science of green keeping through out the mid-west and his pragmatism, enthusiasm and evangelism was responsible for the introduction of many courses on golf course maintenance at University Agriculture Departments through out and beyond the region.

President of the PGA
In 1914 White left Chicago to design the Wykagyl C.C. at New Rochelle and he stayed on as the first professional. He quickly became a leading light in East Coast golf just as he had been in the mid-west. Further more, by this time it is estimated that he had a close relationship with about a third of the pros in the United States, either by blood, marriage or through job sponsorship. Thus when the United States PGA came to be founded in 1916, Bob White was a natural choice as its first president, a post he retained until 1920. The PGA was lucky to have such a president who skillfully overcame the differences that arose between the opinionated members. When one reads about the early meetings of the PGA committees the phrase 'Herding Cats' immediately springs to mind! One is also impressed at the number of times quotations of Robert Burns were used to diffuse tricky situations! Who else but a Scotsman would placate an opponent by (incorrectly! - ed.) citing Burns, comparing them to 'An honest whore, the noblest work of God'!

Player
As a player White was a competent competitor, but hardly shone, and this may be one of the reasons he handled his fellow professionals so well. No one was jealous of his golfing abilities! In the US Opens in which he entered he never finished in the top half of the field. For example in 1900 he was 66 shots behind the winner Harry Vardon, averaging 94 strokes a round. (In today's terms this probably would be what a reasonable 8-10 handicapper would shoot. Ed.) However this lack of golfing prowess never seems to have upset him, and he doubtless enjoyed the social aspects and the chance to check on how his numerous prot'eg'es were coming along.

Later Years
Robert White later laid out and designed several courses and became a respected architect - we can use that phrase for his later courses - even if never quite obtaining the reputation of a Tillinghast, a Stanley Thompson, a Donald Ross or an Alister Mackenzie. But then self-advertisement was never his strong suit. Well over 30 clubs still attribute him as their architect, and the two that the author has played certainly compare well with many more famous layouts. In his later years he moved to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and was part owner of several golf enterprises in the area. He managed his finances with the same good sense as he had managed the early PGA, and so like most of these early Scots he went to his grave a relatively wealthy, respected and loved man! Robert White may have been one of the more well known and successful 'labourers in the vineyard', but in essence he was not much different in style or character to the hundreds of imigrants who impressed their stamp on the American golf game!


Mike Cirba

Joe Bausch and I went out there today and found a golf course that was quite interesting architecturally due strictly to the fairly heavily constructed greensites.

Not a single fairway bunker after the first hole that I can remember, yet some quite good holes, particularly on the back nine.

On the other hand, Robert White was not averse to some Billy-Goat golf, and that was probably due to the number of courses he had to build in relatively sloping sites in the Poconos and northern Jersey terrain.

Hopefully, Mr. Bausch will have a photo tour here before too long.   

Glad to see the course saved, similar to White's Berkshire in PA, which went from private to public a few years back.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
I will be passing right thru there in a few weeks, I might have to jump out of the car and walk 9!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Matt_Ward

If memory serves Harker's Hollow has one of the better long par-3 holes in NJ on the back nine.

Mike Cirba

Matt,

That would be correct.

Both par threes on the back nine are quite good but the 16th is about 215, slightly downhill, with good bunkering on each side.

The par three I thought was terrific, though, was the mid-length 9th, with the steam crossing diagonally across the front of the perched green.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Matt,

That would be correct.

Both par threes on the back nine are quite good but the 16th is about 215, slightly downhill, with good bunkering on each side.

The par three I thought was terrific, though, was the mid-length 9th, with the steam crossing diagonally across the front of the perched green.

And the first par 3 wasn't exactly chopped liver!

I'll try to post some photos of this course on Monday.  Tomorrow I will be distracted.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Joe,

As an FYI, HistoricAerials.com has a really pretty good 1931 shot of the course, which shows that the original Robert White green on #4 was the one all the way up top of the hill.

Matt_Ward

Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 03:16:16 PM »
Harker's Hollow is worth a play for those who have not played it.

Good question -- which is more demanding -- The Architect's or Harker's Hollow?

Mike Cirba

Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 08:20:23 PM »
Matt,

That's a good question.   I suspect the answer day in and day out would be Harkers.

Architects has more in the way of holes where you can make a big score, particularly on the back nine, which is one of my criticisms of it...it makes it appear that golf got more interesting and more challenging the further along you go, to the Jones and Dick Wilson years.   I'm not quite sure that's an accurate read, but anyway..

Harkers is more a slow death.   There are so many elevated, uphill or reverse cant dogleg holes than you won't make big scores on but that are quite difficult to par.   The day we played was after a lot of rain, so it also played quite long.   The greens also have a lot of slope, and although they aren't fearsome, there are no gimme's.

Let's put it this way...if I had to break 80 to keep my house, I'd go to Architects.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 08:33:53 PM »
Mike,

Do you have any pictures to post? I may play either here or Architects on my way back to Ohio from NJ in August....help me to decide!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Mike Cirba

Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2010, 08:37:17 PM »
Richard,

I know Joe took a bunch of pics and I'm sure he'll be posting them as he has the opportunity.

As an architectural aficionado, I'd probably suggest Architects because it's worth seeing for that aspect, but Harker's is a pleasant, challenging alternative.

I don't know what they are charging at Architects these days, but that might factor in.   We walked Harker's on a weekday evening for $24, which was a nice price.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 09:02:49 AM »
Richard,

I know Joe took a bunch of pics and I'm sure he'll be posting them as he has the opportunity.

As an architectural aficionado, I'd probably suggest Architects because it's worth seeing for that aspect, but Harker's is a pleasant, challenging alternative.

I don't know what they are charging at Architects these days, but that might factor in.   We walked Harker's on a weekday evening for $24, which was a nice price.

Geez...thanks for the invite guys...   :'(

Now Im going to have to head out there with Bond.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2016, 03:31:49 PM »
Better late than never on Harkers Hollow photos!  Grin.

I revisited HH on Saturday with Matt Frey.  The bones of a very fun golf course are still there.  The maintenance and presentation leave a bit to be desired.

Check out some of the greens in this photo album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/HarkersHollow/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2016, 09:03:58 PM »
It's been on the market for a few months.

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harkers Hollow CC (White,1929) near Phillipsburg, NJ goes public...
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2016, 01:35:21 PM »
While the conditioning isn't currently great (though not too bad and brought on by their assumed current financial situation), this is a terrific golf course. The routing made the course really interesting; not too many holes up and down the mountainside and not too many in a row that run along side the mountain. The greens are pretty special too with some great greensites. Bunkering was also good, or could be, with a little TLC.