Sahara better at Old Mac than NGLA

[Anthony Gray]

  The brave play challenging the left stays away from a too penel bunker. The medium play does not find deep ruogh after bounding down the hil, and the short play over the ridge still gives a favorable view to the green. The 2nd secound shot missing to the left will roll onto the green punchbowl style. All and all more fair and playable equating to more fun. Dead tree in play trumps windmill out of play.

  Anthony

[Steve Lang]

  being down that hill was no fun at all..

[Link Walsh]

I seem to be one of the few people on this site who has NOT played Old MacDonald yet...  

About how high is that ridge that you have to clear on your drive?  It's just such a unique hole to have on a public resort course (I would think most would have bulldozed the hill to make it more "fair").  It doesn't look like it requires too much of a tee shot lengthwise to clear the hazard, but it looks like anything thin off the tee could be some serious trouble. 

I know I've read about this on GCA somewhere.  My first guess is MacKenzie, but maybe somebody can help me out.  I'm trying to think of the ODG that liked to incorporate blind shots that appeared more intimidating than they really were- something about giving the golfer a chance to experience that thrill of overcoming their fear on the shot, all while building up their anticipation as they climb the hill to see where their tee shot landed.   

So, in a nutshell, does the hole look more intimidating than it really plays?       

[Tom Jefferson]

Link.........
......The drive on #3 (sahara) has alot of similarity to the drive on #9 at Pac, particularly if you are playing to the lower fairway/green.  Originally I was told that the height of the dune was the same as #9, but later heard that it is in fact higher.  The face of it is rounder than at 9 Pac, and I would guess that it is a little closer to the tee.

To me it feels a little more comfortable, possibly because I haven't driven that hole into a strong south wind, which when doing so on #9 Pac can become probematic.

Much like #9 Pac there are three lines to take...the one left (or drawn around) the iconic snag, the B line to the right of the tree, and the semi- bailout to the right.

The drive on Sahara feels freer to me than at 9 Pac......fun. 

Tom

[Tim Bert]

Link.........
......The drive on #3 (sahara) has alot of similarity to the drive on #9 at Pac, particularly if you are playing to the lower fairway/green.  Originally I was told that the height of the dune was the same as #9, but later heard that it is in fact higher.  The face of it is rounder than at 9 Pac, and I would guess that it is a little closer to the tee.

To me it feels a little more comfortable, possibly because I haven't driven that hole into a strong south wind, which when doing so on #9 Pac can become probematic.

Much like #9 Pac there are three lines to take...the one left (or drawn around) the iconic snag, the B line to the right of the tree, and the semi- bailout to the right.

The drive on Sahara feels freer to me than at 9 Pac......fun. 

Tom

This is exactly how I would have described the two. Without knowing the facts, #9 Pac feels like a longer carry but lower ridge than #3 Mac. This past week #9 Pac was a very intimidating tee shot because of the winter wind but in the spumier wind I find it to have a pretty free swing feel. I prefer #3 Mac as a hole. I thought that the fairway we found on the other side of the ridge was spectacular and the green was really cool as well. 

[Michael Robin]

In my film on Old Macdonald, Tom Doak describes the ridge as 50 ft high.

[Jud_T]

Michael,

When do you expect the DVD to be available for purchase?

[Tom_Doak]

In my film on Old Macdonald, Tom Doak describes the ridge as 50 ft high.

Did I really?  I'm sure it's not that high.  I think it was 35 to 40 feet to start with and we cut about ten feet off that to make it less intimidating and to get material for the left side of the fairway.

The ninth at Pacific Dunes is actually level from tee to fairway, it drops about 15 feet to the base of the hill and then comes back up sharply.

[Tom_Doak]

P.s.  I'm surprised so many people love the third hole.  The two holes I would have said were better at Old Macdonald than NGLA are the Long hole and the Eden, both because of their greens.  Maybe the Road hole, too.

[Bill Brightly]

Here is a picture of the tee shot at #3 at Old Macdonald

[Bill Brightly]

And the green from about 100 yards away. Note the severe left-to-right fairway tilt. I hit just right of the tree and the ball kicked right into the fairway. I believe if I had hit over the tree I would have found a flat lie left of the slope.

[Jud_T]

Bill,

Would you say the proper line off the tee is just right of the tree and the agressive play is a fade left of the tree?

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

I would only play left of the tree if I just couldn't hit anything but a fade, and I wanted to be aggressive.  The fade will never get to the green because of the slope of the fairway on the far side of the ridge, so I can't really see why you would take the risk.

The risky shot people might try is a draw around the tree if they are trying to drive it up near the green.  That works great unless you hit the tree, which would probably cost you two or three shots.  I don't imagine I could ever reach the green anyway, so I just play safely to the right and make sure I get up and over.

I love the potential of driving the green at National, but on a downwind blind hole, we had to make this one long enough that hardly anyone will ever get home in one.

[Richard Choi]

I think the approach shot from the high side of the fairway at Sahara was my favorite. You can literally use any club in your bag, including your putter. This is one cool hole.

[Michael Robin]

Tom, mysteriously you now say 30ft. 

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Would you say the proper line off the tee is just right of the tree and the agressive play is a fade left of the tree?

I only got to play it once (Saturday, before the offical opening) so it would be foolish to answer definitively. Left is very comforable as you can see the whole green below you. But I think knowing where the pin was located would matter a lot on this hole. Back left pin and I am happy to be way right, and this is the safest tee shot. Of course, there is no way to see the pin from the tee. 

Tha leads to an interesting question: is it ok for caddies to have a pin sheet, or should the pin location be a surprise?

[Brad Klein]

As I recall, the ridge was originally 37 feet above the teeing ground and it came down about 12-14 feet during construction. From the middle tee it's only 150 yards to carry the line onto safe ground.

I have a good photo of test-driving that hill when it was still sand. If someone can post the image for me here I'll send it. That hole was obviously the crucial transition from the inland side to the big bowl of the course and the dramatic opening view of the ocean. Doak/Urbina and Renaissance Golf put an awful lot of shape and contour into that fairway, and the result is very little steady, level ground and incredible ground movement that kicks the ball right and way from what seems the ideal, shorter line to the green.The hole ends up playing longer than its yardage and will only rarely, if ever be driven, with some north wind and a draw tee shot that counteracts the fade slope.

Some photos posted by Steve Lang in the next post will illustrate this

[Steve Lang]

   public service posting for brad

[Anthony Gray]

  Why did they remove the tree on the right? Just wondering.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

We wanted to be sure everyone could play as safely to the right as they wanted ... and for the hole to be called Sahara, not Field Goal.

[Brett Hochstein]

That seems like an awful lot of clearance.  Was that all gorse and scrub before?  And what's wrong with Field Goal?

[Tom_Doak]

Brett:

I stood up at the top of the hill with the ranger for nearly an hour on Opening Day to watch drives on #3.  On average, one player in four pounded their tee shot into the face of the hill.  There was originally a lot of gorse on the bank, and if we hadn't cleared it, all those players would have been hitting "3" instead of "2".

[Brett Hochstein]

Tom,

By clearance, I simply meant vegetation, but that did still get answered.  I understood taking down the ridge a bit, especially that close to the tee.  I guess I had been in the UK too long assuming maybe some of the cleared vegetation all around might have been usable grassy rough that need not be disturbed during construction.  If you are fortunate enough ever to be in such situations, how often do you try and preserve these potential "grass" roughs during construction?  Or does it just get too tricky sometimes where a full wipeout and reseed becomes the better option?  This is also assuming that such existing rough would be desirable for golf i.e. not too thick and penal

[Link Walsh]

Anthony:

We wanted to be sure everyone could play as safely to the right as they wanted ... and for the hole to be called Sahara, not Field Goal.

Yet another example of a posting on this website that made me laugh out loud when I read it.  Seriously though, thanks Tom for answering all of our questions.  #3 looks like a really fun hole to play. 

[Tom Jefferson]

Brett...........

...........Not trying to answer for Tom D., but there IS an example of leaving 'potential grass roughs' alone during construction, RIGHT HERE AT OLD MACDONALD.  The fire that burned from north to south during the early construction of Pac Dunes (winter of 1999/2000?) left open ground where gorse grew, right on the site of the now current Old Mac.  That open ground was seeded to hard and chewings fescue, and has developed in the years since into mature, if somewhat spotty, rough.
When Old Mac was constructed, large portions of that rough sward were retained, and are in play on many holes today, most notably on 6, 9, 10, 11, 12.

That rough is one reason, IMO, that Old Mac feels so mature and timeless as a playing ground.

It is dense, tough, spotty stuff!!

Tom