Spectacular greens/putting surfaces

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Bayonne recently and was again impressed by the size, variety, contouring and slope of their greens, they're quite stunning.

The bowls and tiers that seperate these greens within green areas are impressive, especially when you consider that the entire project is entirely artificial, having started at 10' ASL, with everything above 10' ASL imported.

I'd have to consider the greens/putting surfaces at Bayonne amongst the top 10 in the state.

They're right up there with
Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Hidden Creek, The Knoll, Pine Valley, Ridgewood, Forsgate and Essex County.

Of those who have played Bayonne, what are your thoughts on the greens/putting surfaces ?

[Keith Phillips]

You mention Bayonne + eight others as offering among the top 10 greens complexes in New Jersey - I'd say the following:

1. I am biased but I'd suggest that Montclair should be among the top 10
2. I agree that Bayonne qualifies - the greens are large and wildly undulating but very puttable, and no two are alike...there are many opportunities to bounce balls in...the course overall is too penal for my tastes, but it is still spectacular and the greens complexes are outstanding

[Patrick_Mucci]

You mention Bayonne + eight others as offering among the top 10 greens complexes in New Jersey - I'd say the following:

1. I am biased but I'd suggest that Montclair should be among the top 10
2. I agree that Bayonne qualifies - the greens are large and wildly undulating but very puttable, and no two are alike...there are many opportunities to bounce balls in...the course overall is too penal for my tastes, but it is still spectacular and the greens complexes are outstanding

Keith,

I grew up putting on Montclair's greens.

My dad caddied there and I caddied there and Montclair was our home course for my high school golf team.

Some of the greens have been altered, some for the worse, some to meet the challenges of higher speeds.

If you can putt at Montclair, you can putt anywhere.

Certainly the 7th green on # 2 nine is one of the best.
Come to think of it, most of the greens on that nine are quite exceptional

Years ago, Montclair hosted the regional qualifying for the U.S. Open.
Doug Tewell shot the 36 hole medal,
When he turned in his scorecard, he complained bitterly about the hole locations.
I told him that the USGA had nothing to do with the hole locations, since, as part of the concession to host the qualifier, Montclair got to decide on hole locations, and that the honor of selecting the hole locations was awarded to Montclair's oldest member.

He had a puzzled look on his face.

Then I told him that the problem with the hole locations today was that the oldest member's seeing eye dog was sick today and out of service and that the oldest member had to perform the task by cane.

Tewell looked at me, shocked.  Then he said, "what, are you a wise guy ?"  To which I said, "let me get this straight, you just shot the medal and qualified for the U.S. Open and you're complaining about the hole locations.  Do me a favor, sign your card and get the F out of here."
He looked at me again, and started to laugh.  Perhaps the smile on my face gave it away.

[Kris Shreiner]

Pat,

Nice story! I've heard very good things about Montclair. You and Dad are just two more examples of what golf loses when it turns is back on caddie golf. With the miilions being showered on something like the First Tee, given the poor support of caddies by the administrative bodies of golf, it makes no sense why more effort hasn't been made to re-invest in supporting the single greatest source of the game's champions and differencemakers.

While I understand that economics limits those facilities that can sustain caddie programs, to not encourage and provide opportunities for caddie golf, especially for youth from modest backgtounds, certainly limits growing the game for many. It's a shame that the avenues to earn while we learned that helped so many of us find the game are dwindling, due more to apathy and misconceptions frankly, than anything else. I hope things change or golf will be the loser long-term.

Cheers,
Kris

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kris,

Interesting that you brought that topic up.
Just yesterday we were discussing "caddying" and it's benefits.

First, young people can be introduced to golf thru caddying.
I think the mechanism for introduction to the game is superior to the First Tee program.

Secondly, young caddies, and all caddies can make a decent wage in a terrific environment.

Thirdly, young caddies can get a terrific education not provided or taught in school.

Fourth, young caddies in school can make valuable connections that lead to good employment opportunities.

Many, many years ago I was instrumental, along with a handful of good golfers, in building an outstanding caddy program at a local club.
That process resulted in an outstanding caddy program that lasted for decades.

Cart revenues have been a detriment to good caddy programs.

I know of several clubs that will NOT charge you for a cart if you take a caddy.
I think that's a good policy as it insures that the caddies will get work.
And that in turn makes them good clubs to caddy at.

A caddy who carries double, who loops early Sat & Sun, and then again in the afternoon can make himself $ 200 to $ 500 a day, depending upon where he's caddying.  That' $ 400 to $ 1,000 for the weekend.  Throw in Friday and your at $ 600 to $ 1,500, cash.

Over the weekend I was telling a few young caddies how to be more efficient/professional so that they could earn larger tips so that they could provide more for their girlfriends, and if they provided more for their girlfriends, surely they would be both rewarded and more desirable to other girlfriends.

I've always been a supporter of a great CADDY program as opposed to a program that just provides bag or putter carriers.

[Kris Shreiner]

Pat,

You make some excellent observations and  I would imagine you'd certainly be a strong supporter of caddie golf. The sacred cow that is cart revenue has caused many misconceptions and myths to take on a life of there own. There is also no question that the sponsorship dollars that car companies put in the pockets of organizations like the PGA and others influence their decision on whether to really"support" caddie golf. The cart IS NOT the enemy, ignorance and a lack of recognizing what the game will continue to lose by not "reinvesting" in caddie golf IS!

To others,

For those who think caddie golf is some vestige of a bygone era, pay a little more attention to daily golf news stories that have caddie roots involved...THEY"RE EVERYWHERE! Just this week Zach Johnson's regular Tour caddie, Damon Green, has been in contention during the Senior U.S. Open. Andres Romero, who came straight out of the caddie ranks from Argentina, has been right at the top the last two weeks on the PGA TOUR, and was Rookie of the Year in 2008.

Many on this sight laud the work of modern architects such as Tom Doak, Gil Hanse,  plus Crenshaw and Coore. They are clearly doing some of the most recognized work in the game today. EVERY ONE of them has been touched by caddie golf...be it cameo, summer stints around the OLD, at Pinehurst, or learning from Harvey Peniick. I laugh when I hear people comment on how they never took a caddie, don't need one, or all the other uninformed reasons why golf doesn't need caddies.

Our own Jim Colton's monumental effort is living testament to what support for caddies should be all about. Think about it, all you doubters, what does that say about someone in golf who thought enough to really dig deep to support a caddie? Look at all the helping hands that came forward from various facilities. Why can't that same appreciation be shown for what caddies have delivered for the game?

Caddies and Caddie Golf has defined the game for centuries. When Caddie Golf is dead, the game wil be dead. With all respect to the PGA and R&A...CADDIES are the REAL keepers of the flame in golf and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

Golf is sick right now. Caddie Golf is not well either. Think that's a coincidence? I think not!  You can argue that economics are the main culprit, but its much deeper than that and frankly, cost is just a convenient excuse the cheap or apathetic reach for regularly.   Some of the caddie fees, such as the compensation Pat touched on, have gotten excessive, but it's mainly at the top clubs in the regions of the country where the cost of living is astronomical.

Many use that extreme, top-end compensation, as a across-the-board figure for why caddie golf is overpriced. This is innacurate, and negates the reality it is far more modest at most facilities. I'm not going to embarass anyone, but you'd be appalled if you heard some of the pathetic responses I've gotten from some of the top administrative folks in the game when asked why they're support of caddie golf has been so weak. Their call for thrift is down-right laughable considering the bloated compensation they enjoy.

They've forgotten their own organizational histories, as the million dollar plus salaries they jealously protect, are the product of the foundations created on untold thousands of caddie backs, since they came, brought and taught the game to this nation from Scotland.

Many of today's caddie programs, particularly the non-big name clubs, have hired mediocre mentorship to guide and run them, often due to underpaying the position, or having the responsibility dumped on some young assistant pro who doesn't have a clue how to run a proper program.  This often results in poor experiences for golfers and that only feeds the "not worth the money, why take them " mentality. In truth, bad caddie performances can be a significant problem, but that has everything to do with the LEADERSHIP and TRAINING of the caddie program and little else.

Many folks I greatly respect, sadly including quite a few on this site, have a low regard for the caddie dynamic. Much of that is due, again, to poor experiences, which if occurring more often than not, understandably turns folks off. The solution is to provide outreach, education and better support those facilities that need assistance and direction.

I've spent an enormous amount of time examining, and discussing with others, what can be done. Some momentum has been achieved and when plans become more developed, I'll share them for those on this site that wish to support Caddie Golf.

Cheers,
Kris

[Mark Chaplin]

Kris golf is very very expensive in the USA, adding $60-100 everytime you play your course for a caddie can be enough to break the camels back. Play once a week and spend $60 on a caddie that's $3000p.a or £2000, in the UK at least 98% of clubs charge less than that for entire membership fees per annum. Costs are killing the game.

Look no further than TOC for spectacular greens.

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

Is it possible that the cost of using a caddy had led directly to the demise of caddy programs? I agree about the cart thing, but let's keep it at just the caddy piece here. A good wage for a high school or college-aged person is perhaps $8 - $10/hr. I can get some great college juniors and seniors to work in my store and have some specialized knowledge of my products, provide great customer service, etc. for that amount. But a caddy carrying 2 bags typically makes three or four times that.

Lots of studies show that the existence of the minimum wage has a direct negative impact on youth employment. Surely the same must apply here. Have the managers of caddy programs priced caddies out of the market? Would more golfers use caddies if the cost per golfer was $30 - $40? Carrying two bags and allowing for 1-2 hours of standing around time, that would still be $10-$15 per hour, and the caddy would also enjoy all of the other benefits you've listed.

[Keith Phillips]

We have a fine caddie tradition at Montclair, and the program has been improved in the past few years with some more focus and improved training - yes, the cost of the caddie adds substantially to the cost of golf ($60-$80 per bag adds up), but the members understand the importance of the caddie to the golf experience - having said that, I played a 9-hole evening match last week and had a senior caddie carrying for me - it had been a quiet day and I was his first loop (at 6pm!) - he had been at the club waiting patiently for 10 hours before he got a loop, so the $50 I gave him for 9 equated to about $4/hour over the course of the day!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Is it possible that the cost of using a caddy had led directly to the demise of caddy programs?

Possibly.

But, I don't think that golfers that pay significant initiation fees and annual dues balk at paying a caddy.


I agree about the cart thing, but let's keep it at just the caddy piece here.

A good wage for a high school or college-aged person is perhaps $8 - $10/hr. I can get some great college juniors and seniors to work in my store and have some specialized knowledge of my products, provide great customer service, etc. for that amount.

But a caddy carrying 2 bags typically makes three or four times that.

Look at who their employer is.
And, as someone pointed out, you're just counting their direct service time, not their waiting time.
It would be difficult to get caddies at $ 24 to $ 32 for three to four hours.   


Lots of studies show that the existence of the minimum wage has a direct negative impact on youth employment.

Surely the same must apply here.


I don't think so, I think the market dictates.
If Club A pays $ 50 a bag and the club down the road pays $ 65 a bag, who do you think is going to get the good caddies ?
For 35 years we've been comparing our caddy rates to other clubs in the area.
If you're on the low end of the pay range, you're not going to get the good caddies.
They follow the money.  It's that simple

Have the managers of caddy programs priced caddies out of the market?

Not at all.

Would more golfers use caddies if the cost per golfer was $30 - $40? Carrying two bags and allowing for 1-2 hours of standing around time, that would still be $10-$15 per hour, and the caddy would also enjoy all of the other benefits you've listed.

That's just not going to happen.

As I indicated, for 35 years we've been evaluating caddy rates from a dozen or so clubs in order to remain competitive with our rates.

If Montclair had caddy rates of $ 40 a bag, as you prefer, Essex County, just a mile or so down the road would offer $ 50 and get all the good caddies.   Then, Green Brook, Crestmont, Essex Fells, clubs within a mile or two would offer $ 60 and get the better caddies.

You're looking at the issue in a vacuum, as if a club exists in a world not influenced by what other clubs do, and in the metropolitan NY area, clubs are in close proximity to one another and their influence is felt, especially when it comes to caddies.

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

I agree that the market dictates and in the case of caddy programs has dictated. Some of it is carts, no question about it. But where carts and caddies are equally available and there's a huge cost differential for the player, the market still seems to be speaking, and what it's saying is that caddies are less desirable now than they were before. Even people we think of as being financially successful have their limits and many are hurting. 

I'm not suggesting that caddy fees should be lower and/or that their cost influences my decision to utilize their services when available. But on a macro industry and nation-wide basis, I'm simply wondering if the cost has had a big negative impact, working counter to the objective of bringing those of school age into the game. For teens having the opportunity to have a job making $10-$15/hr in an otherwise very difficult job market  seems like a pretty good thing (and I did identify the standing around time in my post). I understand and to a degree agree with your points, but I'm not so sure that the economic realities I've raised aren't playing a big role as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I agree that the market dictates and in the case of caddy programs has dictated. Some of it is carts, no question about it. But where carts and caddies are equally available and there's a huge cost differential for the player, the market still seems to be speaking, and what it's saying is that caddies are less desirable now than they were before.

Your example rarely happens.
Most clubs are keenly aware of the relationship between caddy and cart costs.

Many clubs dictate that all groups MUST take a caddy even if they take a cart.
Some clubs waive this rule after 2 or 3 pm, but, during the peak playing hours caddies are usually mandated.

Do you know of any clubs where theres a huge cost difference between caddy and cart ?

Even people we think of as being financially successful have their limits and many are hurting. 

Intelligent committees, ( I realize that that's a contradiction in terms) consider those factors in the context of the membership.
But again, belonging to a golf club is a luxury.

I'm not suggesting that caddy fees should be lower and/or that their cost influences my decision to utilize their services when available. But on a macro industry and nation-wide basis, I'm simply wondering if the cost has had a big negative impact, working counter to the objective of bringing those of school age into the game.

Why would getting paid a good wage for caddying have a negative impact on attracting school age kids ?

For teens having the opportunity to have a job making $10-$15/hr in an otherwise very difficult job market  seems like a pretty good thing (and I did identify the standing around time in my post). I understand and to a degree agree with your points, but I'm not so sure that the economic realities I've raised aren't playing a big role as well.

At the clubs I"ve played at for the last two years the caddy programs seem to be doing quite well.

I know of more than a few clubs where caddies get $ 100 per bag.
I know of a few clubs where the caddies are accomplished golfers, including professionals, especially in the winter.

[Mark Chaplin]

I've played golf for 30 years and had a caddie twice in the UK and still enjoy golf perfectly. I have nothing whatsoever against caddie programs especially where they also support scholarships. It is the compulsory aspect I disagree with. A golfer should be able to put his clubs across his back and walk.

Kris - caddies are the real keepers of the flame of golf.....you must either have some extremely rose tinted glasses, a lovely Scotch or some fine wacky backy.

Pat - overall conditions of employment including playing opportunities may have an impact as much as pure cash, especially in young people who want to play.

RCP's green complexes are pretty special.

[Sean_A]

Of course there is a huge differential between the relatively small number of very elite clubs which cost a small fortune to be a member of and practically every other club/course.  Perhaps many of these well off golfers don't mind paying $60, $80 or $100 for a caddie, however, for every well off golfer there are countless not so well of golfers who will not pay those sorts of rates for a guy to offer advice on a GAME and carry a bag.  Many see this as a high skill job, I suspect many more do not and hence the reason we don't have caddie programs over-running the country.  There is nothing in the least wrong with either way of playing, but I don't buy that caddies are in any way the soul of the game, the future of the game or an indicator on the health of the game.  Caddies have always been for the well to do and the odd special game for Joe Bloggs.  Its just that originally, most of the folks playing golf were the well to do.  It could never be the case that as golf grew to include the middle class so would the influence of the caddie.   

Ciao

[David_Madison]

Patrick-

Interesting that you mention the concept of "mandatory", likely with set minimum fees along with the concept of success. I've always thought of you as a fellow free marketer. Clearly that's not happening here. Mandated success is not necessarily to successful. As soon as the support of the mandate goes away, the success often follows. Isn't that what's happened at the many clubs who no longer have caddie programs?

A high "over-market" wage for a teenager is surely a huge attractor to a job. But if that high wage, absent "mandatory" reduces demand for that service, then the availability of these jobs (and hence the opportunity to bring more young people into the game via the caddy route) would seem to be reduced.

None of what I've written applies to highly qualified professional golfers/caddies and adult, experienced caddies. But taken strictly within the context of creating well-paying attractive summer and part-time weekend work for teens and college kids, for the purpose of attracting the greatest number of youth into the game in a manner that generates all of the other benefits you so rightly listed, absent "mandatory" I can't help but think that $60 - $100 per round per golfer caddie rates reduces those opportunities.

[Kris Shreiner]

Mark and Sean,

It was not my intent to threadjack and these will be my last obsevations on caddie golf in this thread. Your responses are typical of so many others that take the narrow view of caddies in the game. 95% of facilities will NEVER be caddie courses and that is fine. That has never been the issue. It's not supporting caddie golf wherever possible, when it is BY FAR, the single, greatest source of the game's passionate differencemakers and champions...that's the issue.

To others interested,

Anyone that thinks caddie golf's impact stops at the front gate of elite clubs doesn't know their golf history! Let's remove every artifact, names from trophies or written documents, that have caddie roots to thank, from ther R&A. USGA, PGA, World Golf Hall of Fame and every other exhibit or museum worldwide...there would be some pretty empty spaces folks! Guess the cart company lore and epic GPS contributions will fill the void in the future. Please.

Let's go one step further. Remove every golf course that has had an architect involved, or those that constructed it, with caddie roots. What's that course landscape look llike? Sorry, the argument caddie golf has no impact beyond wealthy golfers falls flat.

Golf grew to include the middle class in the U. S., as it still does in many emerging golf nations(think India and China), with a definite boost from caddie golf. Where do you think most of these nation's early professionals have come from? You guessed it. This draws others of modest means(NOT THE WELL OFF) to the game and enables them to access it.

Certainly, there are nations without a caddie dynamic and that is just fine. I will assert that those nation's will never know the benefits, that caddie scholarships and adult mentorship could have, in changing lives for the better of those many young adults that benefit from such an experience, thanks to golf. To those that point to vice and bad influences that caddie yards can have...that is all down to how they are run! That weak argument is like saying no one should drive because you might become a drunk driver.

Even if you golf and never take a caddie in your life, to claim you love the game, respect it, honor the history and tradition, etc. etc., and not be able to bring yourself to acknowledge that the TITANIC impact of caddie golf deserves support and re-investment wherever possible, speaks volumes. Caddies are fellow human beings. Many have used the lessons and time spent in that environment to become some of mankind's significant contributors IN EVERY WALK  OF LIFE. That continues...TODAY.

Anything done well is an art. That includes caddie golf.  Many caddie experiences fall short of that, just like they do in every other endeavor. How many crap lessons have pros taught ? It's easy to deride or marginalize caddiies' contributions. I find it interesting that many with the strongest opinions against them have hardly ever had the experince.

In my view, caddies shouldn't be mandatory. If the leadership and support of the program are solid, the quality of the experience will be failrly consistent, and folks will take them. Where it gets difficult are clubs or facilities that have a mix of those that support taking caddies, or don't. Thrift has a powerful influence on some; given the choice they'll leave supporting something to others.

I can't afford to take a caddie every round, and certainly don't expect others to do so. The economic reality is every golfer, even those with higher incomes, can't always take a caddie...I get it! That said, most with the means to play higher-end facilities can certainly take caddies some of the time.

My logged in time expired while I was posting this so I apologize for the choppy text. I'm not expecting to convert people who don't wish to take, or have anything to do with caddies, into pro-caddie supporters. My intent is to convey, to those that may have a vague view,  or low opinion of caddies, ALL that caddie golf has, AND STILL DOES, contribute to the game..EVERYDAY.

The idea that American golf is expensive is one I see written a lot on this site. Pointing to the upper-end of the market and using that as an indictment of how expensive the game is in the U.S. reflects just part of the picture. The game got bloated here and the market is sorting it out. It always does. There are thousands of courses in America with modest green fees. By the way,  many municilpal golf courses, like Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia, hardly the bastion of the well-heeled, had caddies for DECADES. Beth Page, and a few others, STILL DO. With that, I'll retire from this thread.

Cheers,
Kris

[Mark Chaplin]

Kris - I am a member of a US club where local fees are approaching five figures so I am aware of the costs of country club golf and the benefits of a good caddie programme. I once played a world top 30 course where my caddie was basically a bunker raker and flag holder, not great value for $50 especially when he lost a head cover and didn't even mention it.

Life is about choices, I have the utmost respect for golfers who choose to employ the services of a caddie, but I can name - off the record -people who wanted to join a club that wanted members but did not because of compulsory caddies.  

Museums are full of interesting things but it does not mean I still need to travel by horse and cart, light my house with candles or deport thieves to Australia.

RMW has some great greens.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always liked the huge 18th green at Indianwood Old in Michigan for variety.

[John Foley]

The most amazing thing about the greens at Bayonne was the size. From the member I played with he commented that as a whole, they beleive they are the largest is the US. He mentioned that Brad Klein had referenced this in GW - not sure I saw that.

Given the nature of the property I think anything smaller would be tough to play to for anything but the scratch golfer.

Here are a few pics to get the scale

[Roger Wolfe]

On the subject of caddies.

We have toyed with caddies at our club.  The going rate for a caddy is simply not going to work at our club although I wish it could.  About 65% of our rounds are walking now and push carts have become all the rage.  I know a traditional caddy will read greens and help you with club selection and yardages... especially if you are a guest.  BUT, especially at a your own private club, isn't a big part of the caddy experience the simple fact you can walk down the fairway unencumbered with clubs or having to fix divots or having to rake bunkers?  I have toyed with the following idea... what are your thoughts?

Recruit member children ages 10 - 17 as "push caddies."
Pay them $20 per round plus tip.
Have them handle your push cart.
Have them rake bunkers.
Have them fix divots.
Have them forecaddy up the fairway.

If a cart fee is $15, would you pay a young person $20 to $30 for this service?  Do you think these kids (especially those 15 and under who cannot legally work) would be willing to spend 5 hours making $30 cash?  Would this accomplish all of the "educational" and "introduction to the game" aspects of caddy programs that are so important?

I know at my club I know the yardages and I can read the greens.  What I cherish is walking down the fairway free of clubs, carts and distractions.  A regular caddy (old enough and strong enough to lug two bags) would never work for this wage.  However, would a youngster push a cart two mornings a weekend so he can buy the latest Xbox game on Monday?

What are your thoughts?

[Michael Ryan]

I know that this thread delved into a discussion on caddies-so as a former caddie of Mr. Mucci's I think I'm ok to try and bring it back to the original question about putting surfaces.  I had the opportunity to play Plainfield CC in NJ for the first time on Saturday and my overall positive impression of the course started with the greens and how their challenges dictated the strategy backwards through the fairway to each tee.  I always think that is the sign of great architecture when you start to remember holes from green back to tee....

Mike

[David_Madison]

Roger,

My last comment on the subject as well, as the thread needs to return to Pat's original topic.

Yes, perhaps some version of what you are suggesting could work. Moving past the details of your suggestion, something along these lines that also incorporates the opportunity to enjoy the game as a player would be great. After all, just think how many dads have brought their kids along to do some version of what you've suggested (in my case simply tending the flag) paid them so that there's an incentive, and brought them into the game that way. Sure, it's "caddy-lite", but at some level it sure would be a wonderful approach and likely help bring lots of new young golfers into the game.

[Roger Wolfe]

Yes... sorry to hijack.  I think I will make a new topic.

Sorry Pat !

[Patrick_Mucci]

That's OK, as long as the inertial guidance system brings us back on topic.

The scale of the greens at Bayonne is impressive and EVERY contour is manufactured, as is the entire course.

It's the product of great passion.

The greens are very, very, very interesting and challenging but reasonable.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Mr Mucci - You mention the green on #7 of the 2nd 9 at Montclair as "one of the best"... Have you played it this summer? Its been reworked... I took the last putt ever on the original #9 of 3 this morning!

At my home course (Quaker Ridge), I could spend hours putting on #9, 13, 14, and 15 (especially since its been expanded significantly in the back).

Nobody would be wrong to mention almost any hole/green at Pinehurst #2 in this thread. If I had to pick my two favorite greens, they would be #9 and 13.