Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...

[Garland Bayley]

Mike - an overabundance of talent...

Of course, the other answer is an underabundance of talent.

[JESII]

No, it's not...

[Garland Bayley]

They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  

How does the ball differentiate between side spin and back spin?  

Mike,

The modern ball has been engineered to spin little when there is little loft, and a lot when there is high loft. If you think of open and closed as sideways "loft" then it is harder to hit the small fade or draw, and easier to hit the slice or hook, because the "loft" is larger for those.

I hope I understood your question, and my response helps.

[Garland Bayley]

No, it's not...

Well, my underabundance of talent allows me to get into duck hooking the ball from time to time. Of course, I never intend to do so.

[Garland Bayley]

With regards to BM #10. The straight ball will land and run out up slope across the fairway, the far side of which slopes towards the tee, whereas, the ball that has turned some will start to take the down slope towards the green. Me thinks you have to curve the ball more than 5 yards to get any appreciable benefit, bit I can see how certain curving balls would benefit. But, back to Sully's question. Is the risk worth it? Bend too much and you are in the bunker!

[Tim Pitner]

Working the ball is over for the most part.  If you hit the center of the driver sweet spot with a Pro V1 is rarely it going to move very much either way.  They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  

Last year I played Huntingdon Valley with a balata and persimmon and hit some of the most viscous hooks seen in years.  

The modern ball and driver head has made us enjoy the game more, however with worse swings....

If we cut down every tree in sight, and widen the fairways to improve angles, why wold you ever need to work the ball off the tee?

Jeff,

This is a classic strawman argument.  No one is advocating reducing golf courses to open fields where you can hit the ball anywhere without penalty.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

The 13th at ANGC is a great hole because it mandates a swinging draw and players have to be careful in not overcooking the draw -- as a result many bail out to the right and the demands for the hole only intensity with the failed tee shot execution.

In the case of BM -- the draw allows the tee shot to run out even more than a straight ball -- you need to draw it a good bit more than 5 yards to derive the benefit. If you push or block the tee shot you may end up in high desert terrain. No doubt those who have a draw in their shotmaking will find the hole enjoyable when executed properly. A straight tee shot only adds to the distance of the second shot and presents a much more demanding approach angle.

Adam is right -- a fade can be played but you are working against the natural movement of the earth for the hole. Overcook the fade and you either the desert on the far right or get tied up on the left side which is no bargain either.

I see no reason why golf courses should not get the player's to work the ball and mandate it from time to time. Banging the driver hard is one thing -- doing it in combination with ball movement is quite another.

[Adam Clayman]

Desert Forest is the perfect example of the mandates Matt is speaking of. What's even better is, depending on how far you can carry the ball, the spots to utilize these shots is quite different. That's what makes it such a thoughtful design. Not that there's one shot, but that one better shot for every type of game. Be they pretender or not.

[Sean_A]

I always think of moving the ball to either take advantage of terrain or taking a side of the course out of play.  In either case a well aimed straight shot isn't a problem.  I don't mind seeing forced movement holes once in a while, but they aren't my favourite sort because they necessarily create a narrow gap of success.  Most average guys can't handle this sort of hole and yes, trees are often the miss.  Often times, these become lay-up holes if the forced movement is sharp enough.  Of course, this means the guy who can hit a high bomb has a huge advantage over the guy who can't.  It isn't bad architecture, but again, its not my favourite sort.   

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Golf is a test of skill -- it often times should require players to demonstrate whether or not they are capable in plaing certain shots.

What I find amusing is that people will think nothing of asking a player to handle a trecherous putt which slides in multiple directions but when the same demand is placed upon the player at the tee it's looked upon in a different way.

I have come to believe that testing the driving of the ball is a lost art -- the clubs allow for the bang away approach -- and designers, including the favored ones here, simply believe that a huge open field allows them to provide for the masses when in reality little differentiation occurs in terms of rewarding shots that are played a particular way.

Unrelated but to answer a previous statement -- getting a ball to draw appropriately is one of the toughest shots to play when needed. The amount of hand action needs to be just so -- too much and you snipe it -- too little and the ball remains out to the right. ANGC's 13th proves that point every year and it's one of the best shots to see under tournament pressure each year in my mind.

[Gary Slatter]

Can someone explain to me how I can get my "modern" driver and ball to duck-hook so violently, curving at something approaching a 45-degree angle?   

I've found transferring all of my weight to the back foot gets exactly the opposite result.