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Matt_Ward

Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« on: June 03, 2010, 08:23:17 PM »
Today's drivers are quite e-z to hit compared to what was available on the market in the pre-metal days.

The issue is not about hitting them straight -- they do that quite well for many people.

The issue is whether players can work the ball -- on demand -- when called upon.

Unfortunately, driving the ball is really not discussed much here -- or even valued. You get plenty gushing about green contours and the like but driving the ball is downplayed. For some -- including architects here -- the issue is allowing the player to play any type of shot from the tee -- shaping the shot to a desired end is not a mandated item.

I like courses where the marrying up of both distance, accuracy and ball movement is weighed together. Sliding a shot to the right or hitting a soft draw when called upon is quite challenging and separates the players from the pretenders.

A great example is the 10th at Black Mesa in NM. The hole calls for a slight draw and there are penalities -- some rather severe -- for any type of real failure. Pull the shot off and the reward will be provided. I just wonder how little attention is played in emphasizing ball movement off the tee with th-- in olden days it was valued -- it just seems much less so today.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 08:34:54 PM »
To paraphrase Bill Clinton, it's the ball ...
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 08:35:14 PM »
Working the ball is over for the most part.  If you hit the center of the driver sweet spot with a Pro V1 is rarely it going to move very much either way.  They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  

Last year I played Huntingdon Valley with a balata and persimmon and hit some of the most viscous hooks seen in years.  

The modern ball and driver head has made us enjoy the game more, however with worse swings....

jeffwarne

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 08:46:10 PM »
Working the ball is over for the most part.  If you hit the center of the driver sweet spot with a Pro V1 is rarely it going to move very much either way.  They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  

Last year I played Huntingdon Valley with a balata and persimmon and hit some of the most viscous hooks seen in years.  

The modern ball and driver head has made us enjoy the game more, however with worse swings....

If we cut down every tree in sight, and widen the fairways to improve angles, why wold you ever need to work the ball off the tee?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Moore II

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 08:52:22 PM »
The deal with working the ball with a driver has a couple of things in play. The driver heads are bigger and the bulge and roll of the face has less to do with stuff now. The driver faces are designed to impart less spin on the golf ball than before; thats why you don't see grooves on driver faces anymore. And the balls are designed with a different spin rates than old wound golf balls. Today's golf balls are designed in such a way that they react differently with different clubs; they might spin roughly the same as a wound ball with the wedges (roughly I say, I've used wound balls, I know they spin like crazy) but they spin far less than old balls off the driver.

You can still work the ball, it just takes much more effort and control. So, actually, you have to try to hook or fade it 'farther' than before, yet maintain better control of it. Its a hard thing to pull off. I doubt even most guys on tour try to work the ball much with the driver anymore.

And as far as golf courses, yes, I'd say that most are designed today to reward straight hit precision and not draws or fades off the tee.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 09:18:26 PM »
Matt,
Your post made me think of the way an architect can angle a tee or fairway to influence a player to align himself incorrectly, resulting in a hook or slice.

A rectangular tee box, pointing askew of the normal line of play can drive a handicap golfer nuts and I dare say could make an excellent player really think.

All good things :)

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 09:23:13 PM »
Working the ball is over for the most part.  If you hit the center of the driver sweet spot with a Pro V1 is rarely it going to move very much either way.  They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  

Last year I played Huntingdon Valley with a balata and persimmon and hit some of the most viscous hooks seen in years.  

The modern ball and driver head has made us enjoy the game more, however with worse swings....

If we cut down every tree in sight, and widen the fairways to improve angles, why wold you ever need to work the ball off the tee?

agreed!  i never try and work the ball of the tee.  i pick an aiming point and swing hard.  i also hit driver on every hole too... :-)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 09:34:47 PM »
Matt - I think most of the courses you play must be too good, too famous, too new, or too well designed. But I can't believe you don't also play your share of modest courses built in the 60s and 70s, the ones on flattish land where the architect has used a lot of doglegs with bunkers on the inside of the dogleg and bunkers further down the fairway on the outside of the dogleg, and where a little fade off the tee or a little draw helps (sometimes quite a bit) but where a straight ball doesn't hurt, and where most often the bend in the fairway is at 250 yards off the tee, maximum. Maybe that's not the kind of golf and golf courses you're asking about, but I see those kind of courses quite often - and yes, even with a modern driver (granted, about 7-8 years old now), a Trevino set-up or a Lehman swing action can help fade or draw the ball a little, even for a very average golfer like me.  

Peter

Steve Lang

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 09:38:48 PM »
 8) Matt, of course some holes being straight are a challenge, eh?


p.s. I can work my old Titleist 983-K  :o
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David_Elvins

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 09:46:41 PM »
I always agree with these threads right up until the time I next play golf. 

With a big oversized driver and Pro v1 ball I can still hit shots that tail of viciously to both the left and right. 

the real issue, IMO is fairway firmness and elevated tees.  Soft fairways and elevated tees present entirely different challenges than hard fast fairways. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

John Moore II

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 10:15:31 PM »
I always agree with these threads right up until the time I next play golf. 

With a big oversized driver and Pro v1 ball I can still hit shots that tail of viciously to both the left and right. 

the real issue, IMO is fairway firmness and elevated tees.  Soft fairways and elevated tees present entirely different challenges than hard fast fairways. 

You are exactly right. You can still hit the huge slices and hooks with the new equipment, but they tend to be easier to hit straight on a regular basis. Nothing in the world can cure coming over the top really bad with a shut clubface. Its still easy to hit the huge slices, but harder to hit the 10 yard, controlled fades.   

And yes, soft fairways present very different challenges.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 10:16:39 PM »
It's easier to work the ball with a 3-wood.  Even today.

Steve Kline

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2010, 07:37:15 AM »
I agree the combination of new drivers and new balls are harder to work. I can still do it with irons rather easily. Although I will say that I find it quite easy to hit a 5 to 10 yard fade with the new drivers and balls but find it very hard to hit a 5 to 10 yard draw. That little draw had been my natural shot my entire life until the new equipment took over. In fact in college I couldn't do anything but draw or hook the ball until my coach told me I needed to learn both because I had to lay up on dog legs to the right while other guys played power fades around the corner.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2010, 08:23:05 AM »
Matt - I think most of the courses you play must be too good, too famous, too new, or too well designed. But I can't believe you don't also play your share of modest courses built in the 60s and 70s, the ones on flattish land where the architect has used a lot of doglegs with bunkers on the inside of the dogleg and bunkers further down the fairway on the outside of the dogleg, and where a little fade off the tee or a little draw helps (sometimes quite a bit) but where a straight ball doesn't hurt, and where most often the bend in the fairway is at 250 yards off the tee, maximum. Maybe that's not the kind of golf and golf courses you're asking about, but I see those kind of courses quite often - and yes, even with a modern driver (granted, about 7-8 years old now), a Trevino set-up or a Lehman swing action can help fade or draw the ball a little, even for a very average golfer like me.  

Peter

Matt and Peter, good conversation.  I use a new Taylormade R9 driver and have found that I still play the same draws and fades off the tee that I always have.  The ball is important, the PROVs are more difficult to work and I can't get them high enough, so I use Srixon or Taylormade Penta, the Penta is like 1990 again, but better..
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 09:47:51 AM »
Matt,

Great topic and observation about how equipment changes driving other than distance.  I much prefer thinking in these terms rather than ratings, and I often wonder, since I still do try to set up draws and fades in my design work, if its worth it, appreciated, used, etc.

From what I see, golfers at the top level can still work the ball, albeit a bit less, perhaps 5-10 yards at the most.  My son just walked by, and we discussed it. He constantly plays a patterned shot, whereas his longer friends just try to bomb it.  It appears that its the same as it used to be - some bombers and some thoughtful golfers!  His thought pattern is simple - if its a wide fw, he draws for more distance (his nickname among team members was Fred Funk) whereas when the fw is tight, he hits a fade for control. 

And lets not forget that the Taylor Made drivers, for one, had the screws to adjust the weights to help either draw and fade, and now you buy them pre weighted to your specs for draw or cut.  Of course, that seems to presume that the course architecture really has no bearing on what type of shot anyone who buys those drivers might play, which is disturbing.

But years ago, I played with Gary Player and noticed just how small his controlled draw or fade was. It was rarely more than a few yards, about the same as my son plays now.  When I asked, Player's reply was that he put just enough draw on it to make sure it woudn't go right, or vice versa.  Even then, he wasn't particularly trying to fit shots in, he was just trying to take one side of the fw out of play.

So, the question is, what kind of gca might encourage a pattern shot now?

Certainly, a large tree encroaching about at the apex of the reduced curve (about 190-200 yards off the tee now) would encourage someone to bend it around. PPalotta's suggestion of staggered bunkers would work, I think for some.  If we presume a tee shot distance of PGA Tour average of 292, I think the staggers would have to be fairly close - say left at 280 (just beyond comfortable carry range for most top players) and right at 290-300, and with a narrow fw angling left between.  I think the far bunker would have to pinch pretty far across the fw, maybe to the centerline. That would leave a pretty narrow, angled landing zone that would almost require a full drive to have a pattern to fit in, with an option to stay right at a shorter distance.   

With the variations in distances these days, for any given landing area, some would just carry the short bunker, but I guess that's okay.  You still can't design for the 0.0001% who bomb it over 300 yards.  (I looked it up on PGA TOUR.com and 24.5% of Tour drives exceed 300 yards. Earlier in the year it was only 18%)

Lastly, I would start to consider what length hole that type of shot might fit on.  On a par 4, if a player who couldn't fit it in played straight and shorter of the right bunker, I doubt I would want the layup to require a real long approach, so maybe the forced shot pattern makes more sense on mid length par 4 holes, and perhaps, any par 5, where you would require a certain shot pattern for max distance in order to reach it in two.

Anyway, just some pre and mid coffee noodles on a great topic. I reserve the right to change my mind, especially if others come on and show me the errors of my ways!  I mean, any guy who likes Medinah No. 3, clearly has a muddled thought process. :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brent Hutto

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 09:53:39 AM »
My swing is barely good enough to make contact with the ball. But I've noticed that some of my good shots draw a little and some of the cut a little and depending on the cant of the fairway and/or direction of the dogleg those little 5-10 yards cuts and draws definitely make a difference.

I really can't imagine that a better player wouldn't want to take advantage of that from time to time. In other words, just because a particular driver/ball combination won't hook 30 yards on demand doesn't mean working the ball is dead. It's just done on a smaller scale with the modern stuff. Or else they use a 3-wood, right?

Adam Clayman

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Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 10:06:38 AM »
Mandates? Calls for?

The 10th at Black Mesa also allows for a fade over the left side. At least that5s what I remember Ed Peck telling a big hitter one day.

Great GCA, does not discount working the ball, it allows the player to think, evaluate, execute and deal with the results.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 10:26:24 AM »
Shiv,

Bazinga!

There is no getting around the fact that to force a curved shot, fairways have to be narrower, and options need to be fewer.  I do think Matt may retort that other than the 9th now, M3 doesn't have a lot of fw that require bending the ball now.  It is straight or nothing, and I am not sure forced bends, via short doglegs and with no extra room on the other side is great design......

On a straight and narrow hole, I presume most golfers would hit it straight, or use their most comfortable shot pattern.  Probably the biggest dilemma on the longer Medinah is whether to hit a fade for control or a draw for more roll.  I would think a fade would be preferred, even at 7400 yards.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 10:59:04 AM »
Adam:

Wake up amigo -- the preferred shot at #10 at BM is a draw -- not a fade. End of story.

Shivas:

Medinah # 3 has more issues than just working the ball. ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 11:22:04 AM »
A great example is the 10th at Black Mesa in NM. The hole calls for a slight draw and there are penalities -- some rather severe -- for any type of real failure. Pull the shot off and the reward will be provided.


Matt,

What happens if I plan for a draw (slight? 5 yards?) and don't pull it off, say it goes straight? I cannot imagine I'm in too much trouble if I miss the spot by even 10 yards, am I? If so, what exactly do you get if you hit the spot that could possibly compensate for the risk?

Maybe more detail of the hole would be helpful to me.

Thanks

Mike Cirba

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 11:25:19 AM »
Can someone explain to me how I can get my "modern" driver and ball to duck-hook so violently, curving at something approaching a 45-degree angle?    ::) :P ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 11:35:34 AM »
Mike - an overabundance of talent...

Mike Cirba

Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2010, 11:37:25 AM »
Thank you, Jim....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2010, 11:38:18 AM »
Sully, if Matt's definition of "requiring" a fade or draw is a 10 yard variance, he's going to have to explain that one for himself. 

I will say this:  there's a difference between a hole asking for a 10 yard fade or draw, and requiring it.  I can't think of many holes at all (let alone entire courses) that have this type of absolute requirement.

Shiv - It would be great to hear that the green is set up so you really do have a tremendous advantage for curving the ball around whatever it is Matt's talking about...but the crux is that even if it is set up that way, today's players that are good enough to do the first part (10 yard perfect draw) are also good enough to hit the approach shot from the wrong angle...unless the maintenance is really there...so where are we Matt? What exactly is the reward for pulling of this ideal drive?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forcing the action ... working the ball on command ...
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2010, 11:39:49 AM »

They have engineered the spin (mainly side spin) out of the ball.  I can pull it, push it, but rarely hit a 10 yard fade or draw.  



How does the ball differentiate between side spin and back spin?  

"... and I liked the guy ..."