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Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2010, 11:16:41 PM »
Many thanks to Rory Connaughton for sending me Flynn's plan for Lancaster Country Club...



TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2010, 11:19:19 PM »
Tom MacWood:

To answer the question you just asked perhaps you should actually try, for a change, reading this thread carefully! Do you have any idea at all what a timeline is? I don't know how many times over the years I've said on here you are a great raw researcher but a really bad analyst. How many times do you want to make that particular point of mine because you just did it again?

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2010, 11:24:57 PM »
By the way, regarding post #100 on this thread who is Ed Oden? His remarks were quoted by Tom MacWood on post #100 but I can't seem to see Ed Oden made them on this thread in the first place.   ???

Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2010, 11:25:16 PM »
Maybe I'm a little slow, please explain how you know this plan was presented in 1920?

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2010, 11:37:54 PM »
"Maybe I'm a little slow, please explain how you know this plan was presented in 1920?"



MAYBE you're a little slow!?   ??? ;)


I'd be glad to explain why that plan was probably presented in 1920 but I'd prefer to have you go back and reread this thread first to see why. If you do that and still can't figure it out then why don't you try rereading it again and carefully? If that doesn't work try it again; perhaps three times might be a charm.  :-\


By the way, Tom MacWood, what is the real reason you answer some posts and emails from people on here and not others?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 11:40:57 PM by TEPaul »

Ed Oden

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2010, 12:13:10 AM »
By the way, regarding post #100 on this thread who is Ed Oden?

I've been asking myself that very question for many years.  If you find the answer, please let me know.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2010, 12:21:46 AM »
Ed:

I understand; I ask myself that question every time I look in a new mirror. But I wish you well, Pal, in your quest for any answer, just as I quest for these kinds of answers from time occassionally. But perish the thought if you are some kind of alternate name on here for Tom MacWood as that would be doubly, ney, triplely or quadrouplely disappointing for all involved on this glorious website!

Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2010, 06:06:53 AM »
It appears how TEP was able to date the map will remain mystery, and that is probably best for all concerned.

A few things that standout to me with the map. You can see the influence of Walter Travis in its style. It is very similar to some of his maps, in its graphic style and his architecture. I believe Flynn was working with Travis in the late teens/early 20s. I also see a little of Merion and the collaboration with Wilson, as well as a touch of Colt (ditto working with Wilson and Alison).

The other thing the stands out are the number of long walks between some greens and the next tee. The routing is a little awkward. I wonder if that was a result of trying to incorporate the existing nine.

Rory
Any idea where the 64 acres of the Charles Zook property was located?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2010, 06:09:00 AM »
Rory
Do you know if the location of the clubhouse was ever changed?


« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 06:12:10 AM by Tom MacWood »

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2010, 08:32:21 AM »
Tom,

   In response to your questions regarding the clubhouse, it has not changed locations though it has been expanded over the years but not toward the course.

  With respect to the Zook property, it was acquired in 1919.  I do not know the exact dimensions but it consisted of approximately 60 acres and almost doubled the club's then acreage to 160 (now approximately430).  Zook maintained frontage on New Holland Pike. This is depicted in the routing posted above.  Since we know that the lot fronting New Holland Pike was part of the original Zook Tract, my guess is that the tract extended to the southeast portion of the property (the road depicted to the left of the club property on the routing runs due east. The course is south of the road). I am looking into this question on the recorder of deeds site.

This routing is not entirely to scale and does not depict the topography of the property. I cannot say that this routing is the most ideal since it has changed considerably but there are only two spots on the course where the tee to green walk is not very very short. Existing 1 to 2 and existing 13 to 14. As depicted on the routing here, that would be 1 to 12 and the area of 17 green to 5.  Other than some elevation change, Lancaster is a very easy walk.

As to your question regarding the dating of the routing, you are correct that on the face of the document it is impossible to know with certainty when it was prepared. There are factors, however, which strongly support the conclusion that this is the original routing prepared by Flynn.

 First, Flynn's drawing style evolved significantly.  The drawings I have seen from later in his career are more sophisticated and prepared on drafting paper.

Second, there is evidence to suggest that a portion of this routing may have been abandoned very early on. In the fairway on the current 13th hole there is an area where it appears that a green existed in the location of the 3rd green as depicted in the plan.  Based on the way that this feature is carved out of a slope and knowing that it was farmland before golf course, there is no way this carve out occurred naturally.   By 1927, however,holes three and 4 as depicted on the plan did not exist. Rather, 3 extended all the way to the northeastern corner of the property (upper left on the routing) and 4 was a par three that played from that corner to the area of the green as depicted in the plan. This is verified from the 1927 and 1940 aeriasl posted by Jim Nagle as well as other club resources.

 Finally, a review of the aerials will confirm that the club did not implement a good number of the bunkering schemes depicted here.  As I stated before, there was some level of skepticism of Flynn of a manner unique to Lancastrians!  Roy Eshelman lamented that they did not give Flynn free reign to implement his plans to the fullest at the beginning of the relationship. It took 25 years of work by M. Eshelman and Flynn for the course to evolve as Flynn envisioned.  So while the routing circa 1940 (pre crossing the river) was generally consistent with the plan with the exception noted above, Flynn ultimately abandoned many of the bunker arrangements depicted in the routing and went with others as seen in the aerials.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 09:22:14 AM by Rory Connaughton »

JNagle

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2010, 08:56:51 AM »
1947 Aerial will all holes still entact (to some degree) although those closest to the New Holland Pike have been removed and those across the Conestoga have been completed.



1940 Aerial with the original routing showing the land across the Conestga without holes.



1927 Aerial



Looking at the 1927 aerial and the alignment of the 8th hole (refer to Flynn's routing) you can see there
was a definate change by 1940.  Same with the original 9th hole.  You also see the evolution of the changes to the NW corner
in the 1940 vs. 1947 aerials.  
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 09:07:27 AM by JNagle »
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2010, 09:03:26 AM »
"It appears how TEP was able to date the map will remain mystery, and that is probably best for all concerned."


It appears that statement is partially true; it appears it will remain a mystery to Tom MacWood but not to the club or others who have actually been to Lancaster and researched the architectural history of the club such as Jim Finegan, Wayne Morrison, Forse and Nagel (or is it Wagner?) and obviously various members of Lancaster such as Rory Connaughton. Even though that Flynn plan is not dated there are a few corroborating circumstances and perhaps physical assets that could pretty much timeline that plan to not later than 1920.

Why don't you reread this thread a few more times, Tom MacWood, and you just might pick up on what they are that pretty much date that Flynn plan to 1920? even if they do not offer rock solid proof to the extent an actual date on that Flynn plan would. If for no other reason it may help improve your analytical skills which heretofore seem to be pretty low to non-existent. After that you may want to consider actually trying to visit this place; something you never seem to do with the courses you try to make the subjects of your architectural investigations. If you still can't figure it out after all that we might consider giving you a few more hints.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:03:38 PM by TEPaul »

JNagle

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2010, 09:37:55 AM »
Further review of the aerials indicates the original 9th green may still be intact (for the time being).  The
current chpping green is in very close proximity to the original 9th.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Joe Bausch

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2010, 09:41:39 AM »
I forgot that I had this August, 1923 Public Ledger article around where Frank McCracken relays info about the new course to Philly golfers.  Of interest to me is that the original location of the 16th green is described as being on top of a quarry!  I wonder if that rocky area was removed or covered up so that grass would grow, as I think it exists now.

(click on the articles to expand them if your browser does not automatically do so!)

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2010, 10:00:08 AM »
Jim

  I have always understood the chipping green to have been the original 9th. "For the time being"! Love it. ;D

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2010, 10:07:46 AM »
Joe:

It's been a while now but if one looks up around the area of the present 17th tee I think the old 16th green was just slightly below it. It may've just been on top of a smallish quarry but as you know they had to blow the top of the quarry off on Merion's 16th to be able to set a green in there properly.

If you ask me, had the modern day US Marines been around in Flynn's day he probably would've joined them in a heartbeat because you know what they've always said about us Marines-----eg "we just love to blow shit up."

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2010, 10:53:36 AM »
Jim Nagle pointed out something that I had not previously paid attention to.  Look at 8 and 9 on the plan and the 1927 aerial. The aerial depicts two straight way holes one out (with the horse shoe bunker the other back to the clubhouse).  In the 1940 aerial, those holes are significantly different and very consistent with Flynn. I don't want to ascribe too much meaning to this other than to say that if those holes had been 1913 originals, they didn't stay that way and were re-angled and ended up being completely different holes.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2010, 06:11:59 AM »
It may just be a coincidence, but the golf guides of 1917 and 1921 had the original nine at 3034 and the new nine at 3300. Joe's 1923 article lists the outward nine at 3041 and the inward at 3266.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #118 on: June 09, 2010, 06:54:30 AM »
I have little idea as to the worth or accuracy of those Golf Guides regarding conclusive evidence of a redesign or not of an existing nine holes course, but it would seem the 1921 Golf Guide listing for Lancaster is either confusing regarding that point or else it may indicate a new nine was built and added to an existing nine while the existing nine is out of play and under redesign. The 1921 listing mentions 18 holes but then lists only nine complete and of 3300 yds. It says nothing about the other nine which would appear to be the original nine that appears not to be in play at the time of the publishing of that 1921 guide.

It appears from Finegan's book and its section on LCC that Flynn was hired in Dec. 1919, he offered a plan for an 18 hole course that began construction in the spring of 1920 and opened for play in the summer of 1921. He even goes into some detail about members et al getting together to pick up rocks on some of the developing fairways. Apparently Finegan was looking at some specific club documentation to this effect, as I can't imagine a researcher/writer would just make stuff like that up.  ;)

As to who designed the original nine in 1913 on that property, apparently the name or names was not recorded by the club, only that he was paid $100 for his efforts. It would be total speculation of course but John Reid who designed the original 1900 nine for LCC on land they leased from the Rossmere Hotel would probably be a good candidate. John Reid was certainly all over this area throughout that time doing Atlantic City, Philmont South and working as the pro/greenkeeper at Gulph Mills in the late teens among other journeyman jobs for clubs. Again, right around the time Flynn began working on LCC Reid was fired by GMGC for apparently planting the greens with wheat. Eventually Flynn and the Wilsons came over to fix seventeen GMGC's greens.

Interestingly Toomey and Flynn charged GMGC $650 per green to fix the greens which appears to be the per green price they charged throughout the 1920s to essentially replant a green. A complete green redesign was double that. The Toomey and Flynn crew chief on the GMGC green re-do project was a man by the name of Ben Mantell who remained at GMGC as its greenkeeper for many years.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 07:17:30 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2010, 07:57:22 AM »
"A few things that standout to me with the map. You can see the influence of Walter Travis in its style. It is very similar to some of his maps, in its graphic style and his architecture. I believe Flynn was working with Travis in the late teens/early 20s. I also see a little of Merion and the collaboration with Wilson, as well as a touch of Colt (ditto working with Wilson and Alison).

The other thing the stands out are the number of long walks between some greens and the next tee. The routing is a little awkward. I wonder if that was a result of trying to incorporate the existing nine."


Tom MacWood:

Flynn influenced by Travis? That's interesting; I didn't know that. Where exactly do you believe Flynn was working with Travis in the late teens/early 20s other than when Toomey and Flynn had to construct the Westchester Biltmore course for Travis in 1920 when Travis was apparently getting so long in the tooth he must've forgotten how to do it himself?  ;)

Also what you call the awkward long walks between some greens and the next tee at Lancaster I call "step-overs." Flynn did that frequently on many of his projects and in my opinion it's frankly the key to some really great routings that can additionally be played incrementally in little "sets." Merion East has two "step-overs," Lehigh has a very important one, Shinnecock has a couple that produce what we call the "Merion routing" at Shinnecock, and Lancaster has a bunch of them. They produce "courses within the course" and they are frankly brilliant.

But I wouldn't expect you to know that or understand it because you never actually go to these courses you critique this way!   ???

« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:20:32 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2010, 10:20:36 AM »
Tom,

Along with John Reid, another very real possibility is Alex Findlay, who did quite a few nine-hole iterations around the region in the early teens.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2010, 01:25:43 PM »
Joe, the pictures turned out absolutely wonderful!  A great representation of what appears to be a fantastic golf course.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Tom MacWood

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2010, 10:42:12 PM »
Tom,

Along with John Reid, another very real possibility is Alex Findlay, who did quite a few nine-hole iterations around the region in the early teens.


Isn't Findlay is more likely than Reid in 1913? Bendelow is another possibility along with Ross and Barker, and wasn't Lockwood doing some things in PA too? I have my doubts about the $100 figure. It is interesting once you get to the towns outside Philadelphia its sometimes hard to figure out who did what around this time.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2010, 09:32:42 AM »
"Isn't Findlay is more likely than Reid in 1913? Bendelow is another possibility along with Ross and Barker, and wasn't Lockwood doing some things in PA too? I have my doubts about the $100 figure. It is interesting once you get to the towns outside Philadelphia its sometimes hard to figure out who did what around this time."


Tom MacWood:


Why do you think it's any harder to figure out who did what around that time in towns outside Philadelphia than around Philadelphia? If the clubs kept good records from that time it shouldn't be any harder to figure out who did what around that time no matter where they are. Of course, no matter where the club and course is one would pretty much need to establish a working relationship with the club and go there first to see for himself.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 09:34:50 AM by TEPaul »

Mark McKeever

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Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2010, 11:07:44 AM »
I was given the opportunity to play Lancaster this weekend thanks to a great host.  :) The golf course really is a tale of two stories that you experience over the 18 holes and I enjoyed everything about it.  Like Rory says, get your birdies in on the front 9.  Boy was he not kidding!!  I couldnt get enough of the routing on the front nine.  It was stellar.  The back nine reminded me a lot of Rolling Green and was a great challenge including a stretch of some very stout par 4's (9-11).  The green complexes flow very well with the terrain around them, and they do a very good job maintaining their trees properly.  The course was playing a bit soft due to recent rains, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well the course did indeed drain.  Thanks to superb course conditions (and a few good swings in a row on occasion)  I was able to play the course pretty well too which was an added bonus!  They have a great caddie program as well which I would highly recommend to anyone heading out there to play!

I can't wait to see the ladies tackle this golf course in 2015.  Should be an awesome tournament.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

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