[TEPaul]

As far as Flynn working solo or not on the design of LCC, we (Wayne and I) are not aware that Flynn ever actually partnered with another architect in a business-sense on any project other than obviously with Howard Toomey who was his partner (who died in the early 1930s) but essentially an engineer as well as apparently the guy who dealt with the engineering building and apparently the billing and financial side.

Flynn was occassionally thrown together on various projects with another architect such as his work in the completion of up to four holes at Pine Valley with a plan done by Hugh Alison or even at The Creek Club with C.B. Macdonald still involved. The former was also in the early 1920s but at that time Flynn actually belonged to PV and Howard Toomey was actually on the board. The latter was around 1926. And of course there is that interesting review done by Hugh Alison of Flynn's Shinnecock plan in the late 1920s.

Flynn apparently came close to partnering with Alison in the early 1920s under some proposal made by Alison at this time but in the end it did not happen.

On the other hand, Flynn was obviously very used to and adept at dealing with clubs and projects where prominent members or member committees were involved in the creation of courses and architecture. That would seem natural for an architect like Flynn who essentially came up through such a process in the Merion creation that early on involved only "amateur/sportsmen" members of the club and others of that ilk.

[Mike Cirba]

This is from the 1917 Golf Guide. This is interesting because its not often in these guides they acknowledge when a club moved or built a new golf course. I believe the pro Jones is the son of John Jones, who was LCC's pro for three or four years before dying. That is the same John Jones who was the pro at Myopia for a number of years. I believe he succeeded Willie Campbell at Myopia if my memory serves me.

3000+ yds. is pretty decent length back then.

Tom/Tom,

(The following is from an email I sent to someone a few years back when I was digging deeper into the first nine at Lancaster.   I surmised that if I could learn who the pro was at the club at the time the course was built, it might help shed light.   Reproduced for what it's worth, hoping it could lead others to see what their sources may have now that we know the course was opened in Fall of 1913).


The online club history mentions that a John McGregor was hired as pro by the club in 1914, and discusses his compensation and club rental agreement.  It almost makes me think that this was the John McGregor of McGregor sporting goods equipment in Ohio, as the expanding club would have likely needed some equipment source.

In any case, it doesn't seem that McGregor was there very long, if at all, because by 1915 the club pro was one TOM Jones (not sure when he was hired).

By 1918, one JOHN Jones was hired, after long stints at Myopia and later Palmetto in SC. He's the one I mentioned to you who was friends with Pres. Taft and Fricke.

John Jones brought in his cousin Cyril Hughes in the early 20s, and JJ died shortly thereafter. Hughes remained with the club for some time, and later went to Saddle River Country Club in Paramus, NJ in the late 1920s.


Even at that,  I'm not sure who the club pro was in 1911-13 when the club was built and opened.

A fall 1913 note in "American Golfer" by Tillinghast as "Hazard" mentions that the club is moving to a new course and building a new $25,000 clubhouse.

I also found in my notes, "...the language in the 1914 Board Report to members says "...we  have laid out a nine hole golf course which extends the play to three thousand and thirty-four yards"

Hope that helps..

[Mike Cirba]

The online history was indeed correct in that John Macgregor was the pro at Lancaster prior to Thomas Jones, as he finished dead last of those who missed the cut in the 1915 US Open with an 86 and an 89 at Midlothian.

[TEPaul]

I'm not as interested in knowing who the pro at LCC was in 1913 as I would be interested in knowing where the holes of that original nine were on that property and whether or not and/or how Flynn may've retained, used, reused etc all, some or any of them in his 1919-20 18 hole design plan. LCC seems to have pretty decent club records and it would seem odd to me if the club doesn't have some idea about this.

Mike:
President Taft played a whole lot of golf at Myopia. The deep bunker fronting #10 green is named for Taft. John Jones was the pro (and apparently greenkeeper) at Myopia from 1898 (he followed Robert White) until 1912 at which point the club records say he quit when he was asked to work on Sundays.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's really the germane issue, isn't it?  

While I have a "completist" curiosity that has me interested in who is responsible for that first nine, the relevance is wholly dependent on how much, if any, of that course was used in the excellent course that's there today.

A good example is Wyoming Valley CC.   While I was intellectually curious to learn that Tom Bendelow designed the first nine on the site in 1896, other than a hole corridor or two the later 18 hole course that Tillinghast designed used virtually none of it.   So, in my personal history of that course, I note Bendelow's work, yet am also fully aware that to credit any of the course today to Bendelow's efforts would be historically inaccurate.

In some cases, the opposite holds true.   For instance, whoever was responsible for the Glen Ridge course built around 1913 has quite a number of holes that survive, at least in routed form, in today's Wille Park revised version.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the Golf Guide entry from 1921. It would appear based on this that a new nine was added to the existing nine, as opposed to creating a completely new 18. That is what the Inquirer article indicated as well. The question remains who designed the first nine.

[Mike Cirba]

Here is the Golf Guide entry from 1921. It would appear based on this that a new nine was added to the existing nine, as opposed to creating a completely new 18. That is what the Inquirer article indicated as well. The question remains who designed the first nine.

Tom,

Or, it could mean they started from scratch and nine holes were done and work continued on the second nine.   "Nine holes complete" sounds to me more like they had just been constructed, especially since the new nine is 300 yards longer than the stated distance of the original..

I'm not sure that this is in any way definitive, but thanks for continuing to dig.

[Tom MacWood]

The golf course is listed as 18 holes. Based on the evidence presented so far your scenario is not likely, but it is possible.

[TEPaul]

I would say the evidence presented so far on this thread is of very little to no help as to the lay out of the original 1913 nine on the present LCC site and whether or not Flynn used or reused various holes of that original 1913 nine into his new 1920 18 hole design for the course and club.

I'm not sure what those Golf Directory things are but comparing the 1917 one posted to the 1921 one posted it's pretty apparent those things made some pretty fundamental mistakes----eg when the club was started is an example, and that they are of little to no analytical help in this particular inquiry.

However, it does seem from the descriptions I'm looking at (Finegan's tome "A Centennial History to Golf in Philadelphia" from which a certain amount of information was taken for the Flynn book) that LCC does have a certain amount of documentary material about the creation and existence of the 1913 course as well as what was done when Flynn was hired in Dec. 1919 to expand the club's course to 18 holes. That work began in the spring of 1920 and the 18 hole course was open for play in the summer of 1921. This apparent documentary material also indicates the club hired Flynn to create nine new holes and remodel the existing nine. What it does not seem to say is whether the existing nine was kept open for play in 1920 when the original nine was being remodeled, and of course what or how much of the original nine's design (such as its routing) was incorporated into the new 18 hole course by Flynn.

A question and subject such as this is probably answerable to a greater degree than this thread has produced answers as the club may have enough documentary material in their archives to answer it fairly comprehensively. It just may be a matter of the club never really bothering to get into the details of this particular question and subject when their course went from the original nine to the 18 hole course that they consider to be a William Flynn design.

This thread is also another good example on here of various people speculating on the architectural evolution of a golf course without first establishing a good working relationship with the club. Luckily, it seems we have Rory Connaughton on this thread from time to time who is from the club and seems to have a very good working knowledge of the club's history and apparently access to its archives. This may just be a matter of getting him to look into a particular subject and area the club may not have bothered to look into before and/or analyze carefully. Frankly, one may even legitimately ask if they even care to or see the importance of it-----eg who (a club) really wants another long drawn out argument on here from a MacWood who may try to use this to conclude, as he has with a number of other significant golf courses, that some unknown person (whose name he will probably fill in on here via rampant speculation) who was paid $100 in 1913 should now be given co-design credit for Lancaster GC?

In some ways this subject and question may not be all that different from what Flynn did about a decade later at Shinnecock when he took that club's course (18 holes at the time) to a new 18 hole course. When Shinnecock hired Flynn to produce a new 18 hole course the club had essentially had two previous 18 hole courses---one very early one by Davis (Dunn?) and one from the teens by Macdonald/Raynor. Flynn's new course was mostly on the same property even though, like Lancaster, additional land was purchased for it.

The most interesting thing, at least to me, is that Flynn actually managed to keep 18 holes in play at all times----eg using preexsiting holes and resequenced routings while adding his own new holes to the resequenced routings used throughout the construction and growing-in process.

I would say this particular question and subject probably is something like that and is answerable in far more detail, from material existing at the club itself, than this thread has heretofore answered it; it is probably just a matter of taking out and renalyzing all the documentary material the club has in its possession of that original 1913 course and comparing it to Flynn's finished 18 hole product in the early 1920s.  



 

[Rory Connaughton]

where to start? I actually think Mr. Cirba's analysis is most likely correct based on the known facts

I do not know when Roy Eshelman joined the club but I do know that he was the chairman of the green committee from 1921 through 1945 and one of his relatives was a founding member of the club so I think its safe to say pre 1921.

My sense is that Flynn may have used elements of the existing 9 and it is possible that some vestiges of that 9 remain but, if so, not many.

First, the construction cost for the 1913 9 was $6,722 whereas the construction budget for Flynn was $46,000 and Flynn original engagement lasted 10 months at $44.92 per month whereas the nameless pro was paid $100 to lay out the course.  I think what we are seeing here is the difference between someone who was using the old fashioned staking out of tee and green locations vs. someone who was, for the time, acting as an architect.  Roy Eshelman commented that the club was skeptical of someone purporting to be a golf course architect when Flynn was engaged.

Second, the Flynn plan is for an 18 hole course, not an additional 9 holes.

Third, the meadow hole (now no. 7) was not part of the original 9 holes and not incorporated until Flynn (the club history references the meadow and its use for other activities prior to Flynn's arrival).

Fourth, of the holes the comprising the original Flynn layout in the area of the property closest to the clubhouse (and therefore the area most likely to have comprised the original 9) many were materially altered during the Flynn era with greens and tees being relocated or no longer exist at all.  For example:

     The original 8 and 9 which run to and from the road to the clubhouse (the area most likely to have hosted  portion of the      
     original 1913 9)(No Longer Exist).

      10 (which plays northeast away from the clubhouse) was shortened and the green moved south and west of its original location

      11 shorted and tee moved west

      4 (par 3 northeast corner of the property) NLE

      3 (now 13) significantly altered  from straightway par 5 to dog leg with at least 150 yards west of present location

      17 - shortened by 100 yards (green now southeast of original location)

All of these changes were made by Flynn between the time of his original and engagement and his death. I would be delighted if light could be shed on the original 1913 nine and how it may have been incorporated into the Flynn 18.  The course as it existed in the 1920's (its first Flynn iteration) was so materially altered by Flynn over the course of 25 years, there is no way to conclude that Flynn simply added 9 holes to an existing 9.

What is really amusing about LCC's relationship with Flynn is that the club was very skeptical of a professional architect vs a pro and it took 25 years with Flynn and Mr. Eshelman working together to achieve what another club may have achieved immediately.

[Mike Cirba]

One thing I find interesting is that George Franklin was Chairman of the Green Committee for quite a long time, before Eshelman.  

I should also mention that the Lancaster Intelligencer-Journal is one of the country's most stately newspapers, but unfortunately only have archives online going back to 1989.   I suspect that they probably had a good deal of coverage regarding the move of the club and the building of the "new" course in 1913.

[TEPaul]

Rory:

What if anything do you know of that the club has about that 1913 nine BEFORE (dated before) Flynn was hired? That is the way to analyze this, rather than from the Flynn course looking backward in time. For instance does the club have any on-ground photos of those early holes, any descriptions of them or their routing sequence etc?

In his career Flynn got into some pretty interesting iterations when he redid existing courses such as proposing or actually routing existing holes in reverse and so forth. Wayne and I believe that Flynn was one of those guys who had that kind of instant mental capacity in spades----sort of like a guy who could take something like a cross-sticks puzzle and just go----ZZZiip and figure it out in about ten seconds flat. We get that impression from some of his documented experiences such as his routing of the Cascades course (super complex land) in one day flat and then having a cost proposal for construction all worked out before evening cocktails.

[Joe Bausch]

I should also mention that the Lancaster Intelligencer-Journal is one of the country's most stately newspapers, but unfortunately only have archives online going back to 1989.   I suspect that they probably had a good deal of coverage regarding the move of the club and the building of the "new" course in 1913.

It looks like that paper is available on microfilm at the Lancaster County Library.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032304/holdings/

[Tom MacWood]

Rory
Do you have a Flynn plan dating from 1921/1922? If you do doesn't that seal the deal, or is it difficult to differentiate between may have been part of the original nine and what was not?

Here is the Golf Guide from 1923 when Eshelman appears for the first time as chairman of the green committee (the years prior it was Franklin).

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom

  We do have the plan.  It certainly tells us what Flynn contemplated but not what was there.

[Tom MacWood]

Could you describe it? Is it a formal detailed plan? Topo? Is it dated? Does Flynn's name appear on it?

[TEPaul]

It is a formal, detailed, 18 hole whole course plan complete with the exact shapes of the holes (fairways), tees, greens, bunkers etc. It is not a topo. It has the holes and yardages on the right; William Flynn's name is labeled on it "William Flynn, Ardmore, Pa." It does not appear to be dated. It is in the Flynn book. I do not know if we supplied it to Lancaster or if they have always had it since Flynn produced it for them in 1920. I'm quite sure Wayne Morrison could answer that question.

One is not going to be able to determine what if anything Flynn used from the original nine hole 1913 course from this Flynn plan. To determine that one must see and analyze from documentary or photographic evidence what was there BEFORE Flynn was hired in Dec. 1919, and then compare it to what-all Flynn did.

To go back to an analogy to what Flynn did at Shinnecock with the creation of a new course from a pre-existing course----eg Flynn actually drew the pre-existing course in detail and then drew his new plan right on top of it. I think that was the only time I have ever seen that done by an architect. For a architectural researcher obviously that provides complete and bullet-proof evidence (at least in the length and width dimensions) of what was there before his course and how he reused some of the previous course if or when in fact he did do that.

It does not appear he did such a thing for Lancaster in 1920.

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom

  I have forwarded a copy of the routing to you via e-mail. 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

  I have forwarded a copy of the routing to you via e-mail. 

Thanks. I look forward to seeing it.

thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net

[Dan Herrmann]

A little side story..

I was playing with a club pro about 10 years ago; a guy that was part of the Philly scene forever.  I'm walking up a fairway and ask him, "Where would you most like to be a member"?

I expected Merion, PV, the Mink, Philly CC,etc...  Nope - his answer was LCC.  He called it the best "Philly" area course to be a member at.  He said it wasn't as great as Merion or PV, but it was, to him, the perfect member's club -  great golf course he could enjoy playing every day for the rest of his life.

Pretty nice compliment

[TEPaul]

Dan:

That's a nice story and a nice thing to say. I agree with you---eg there is just something about Lancaster, the club, that's sort of undefinable in that way. If you spend enough time around it you just sort of sense it.

As a course for tournament players it has something pretty special too that's also a bit ineffable. I played enough stuff there over the years like state amateurs or whatever to tell. To me in the Pa Golf Association or in the GAP there were like 2-4 clubs around here that I felt had what I called a "high intensity level." By that I mean you always sort of felt if you really weren't on your game those courses would expose it at any time and sometimes in little ways, like things could just slip away for reasons that wern't very obvious. To me those "high intensity level" courses were Merion East, Pine Valley, HVGC, sometimes Moselem Springs, and Lancaster. Even if I played good and scored good on those courses I just felt a lot more worn out at the end of it than most any of the others around here. You felt like you just couldn't let your concentration slide on those courses for even a minute.

But when the day was done Lancaster did have a pretty great feel about it in and around the club and the membership and such. They're good people and they have a special golf course.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Another story and another thing that was pretty cool for me with Lancaster was that our pro for about 5-7 years at GMGC came from Lancaster, Terry Hertzog. He was a really good state competitive pro, a great guy, and I think just after he left us and went back home to that area (to be the head pro at Bent Creek) he was playing in the Pa Open at Lancaster. Obviously the membership really loved Terry Hertzog and in the last round he came from way back early and shot a wonderful round. But he finished so early he probably thought he wasn't a factor. I was out there officiating and the guy in the lead began to lose it on the back nine, and so when he was around the 15th hole I radioed in and asked the committee if they knew where Terry was. I think they told me they thought he was about to leave. I told them to go find him and hold him. Sure enough when the final group finished Terry was in a play-off and he and the other guy went up and back on that tough 18th hole in a sudden death play-off like three times and Terry won (I actually remember that Terry who was long and who had one of the most beautiful swings I ever saw, hit a great drive and a 6 iron each time). With the way it all played out you could just about touch the love that club felt for that guy. It was really cool to me and it said a lot about what you mentioned about Lancaster, the club and membership.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom Paul,

Those are extraordinary bunkers in my opinion. I may be the only person who sees this, but I think they are quite distinctive.

I am curious if you think these are exactly like, or close to the original bunker style of that golf course. I don't know that much about Flynn, and I am curious if this style could be attributed to him? Or is this one of those cases where the bunker style is the franchise look of a later architect?

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

That is a very good question and a most interesting observation. For a really detailed, informed and informative answer we need to hear from the recent Lancaster restoration architects, Ron Forse and Jim Nagel. Jim posts on here and he has all that information in total spades. They are very proud of their Lancaster bunker restoration and they should be. Good of you to pick up on it.

In the panoply of golf architecture's history and evolution, Flynn bunkers are sort of a separate case, in my opinion. Some architects in history really relied on the aspect of bunkering to set their style and mark, in my opinion. To me and I think to Wayne we feel like to Flynn bunkering was sort of a suplement for other things he concentrated on and the look and style and playability of his were probably sort of generically "American"-----something that Ron Prichard thinks came originally and uniquely out of the canvas of Merion East's bunkers and perhaps out of the mind and imagination of Hugh Wilson.

There is actually a quotation from Hugh Wilson on this and ironically perhaps the only quote we are aware of from him that he ever wrote on golf architecture.

[Tom MacWood]

It is a formal, detailed, 18 hole whole course plan complete with the exact shapes of the holes (fairways), tees, greens, bunkers etc. It is not a topo. It has the holes and yardages on the right; William Flynn's name is labeled on it "William Flynn, Ardmore, Pa." It does not appear to be dated. It is in the Flynn book. I do not know if we supplied it to Lancaster or if they have always had it since Flynn produced it for them in 1920. I'm quite sure Wayne Morrison could answer that question.

One is not going to be able to determine what if anything Flynn used from the original nine hole 1913 course from this Flynn plan. To determine that one must see and analyze from documentary or photographic evidence what was there BEFORE Flynn was hired in Dec. 1919, and then compare it to what-all Flynn did.

To go back to an analogy to what Flynn did at Shinnecock with the creation of a new course from a pre-existing course----eg Flynn actually drew the pre-existing course in detail and then drew his new plan right on top of it. I think that was the only time I have ever seen that done by an architect. For a architectural researcher obviously that provides complete and bullet-proof evidence (at least in the length and width dimensions) of what was there before his course and how he reused some of the previous course if or when in fact he did do that.

It does not appear he did such a thing for Lancaster in 1920.

If there is no date on the plan how do you know he produced it in 1920?

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