News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2010, 11:26:31 AM »
Who designed the original nine? And wasn't there an expansion of the golf course at some point when new land was acquired? What year did that happen and who did the work?

Mike Cirba

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2010, 11:31:27 AM »
Who designed the original nine? And wasn't there an expansion of the golf course at some point when new land was acquired? What year did that happen and who did the work?

Tom,

I'm not sure, and asked that question above.    Rory mentioned he thought it might be John Reid (who designed their original nine hole course at a different site), but I went back and looked up Jim Finegan's account last night and he mentioned that there is no record, only a $100 payment to a unknown "pro".

The club opened its new site in December 1913, although I'm not sure if the club, or the course, opened on that date.   My guess is the course opened earlier that year and that might be the formal date of the clubhouse opening.  If you can find anything in that regard I'd appreciate knowing, as well.


Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2010, 11:50:39 AM »
Tom and Mike:

  The club history book attributes the original 1900 9 at Rossmere to Reid.  I took the Finegan reference to the 1913 nine (current site) from a secondary source.

Holes 3 through 6 (across the Conestoga River) were not part of the original 18 hole Flynn Course.  In 1938, Roy Eshelman, the benevolent dictator for many years and close friend of Flynn, purchased the land on which those holes now sit.  The Club took an option to buy approximately 30 acres and Flynn designed the holes.  In 1939, the club purchased the land and approved the design.  3-6 were completed in 1941.

As a consequence two par threes on the original Flynn course disappeared (one was located below the location of the current tee for 3, the other was at the Northeastern corner of the property beyond the location of the the end of 13 fairway and green). Two par 4's also disappeared. One led down to the main road in front of the clubhouse and the other played in the other direction (the green at the current short game area was the original nine green).

 I have never reviewed the deed history but I believe that a land swap was also involved in the transaction as 13 was rerouted and portions of the original hole as well the par three northeast of it are lots on what is known as Eshelman Road.

The only holes that are not attributable to Flynn are 2 and 16. 2 originally played straight away. The green was moved to its current location by Billy Haverstick in the 1960's.  Mr. Haverstick was a national caliber amateur and successor to Mr. Eshelman.  16 also played straight away to a tiny green situated on a bluff directly adjacent to 17 tee.  My belief is that William Gordon was involved in this process as he served as the construction manager for the construction of 3-6 and was also actively involved with the evolution of the course (for better or worse in some cases) into the 1970's including the construction of the Sunset Six.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2010, 02:28:58 PM »
"My belief is that William Gordon was involved in this process as he served as the construction manager for the construction of 3-6 and was also actively involved with the evolution of the course (for better or worse in some cases) into the 1970's including the construction of the Sunset Six."


Rory:

That's our understanding too I believe having spoken with his son about it at some point. I like the 15th green where it is now and I think with that slight right to left swing and the bunkering on the left the hole presents some interesting tee shot options for long players. In one of the Pa Opens, long hitting Stu Ingraham just went right over the trees at the green and put it on the front for an uphill eagle putt.

I recall there was a short drop shot par 3 by Flynn from somewhere around the present 3rd tee down to near the beginning of the 7th fairway, right?

The other thing I've always admired about Lancaster is that like a number of Flynn's routings there are various little sets of holes that can be played in various sequences because of the overall routing sequencing. Shinnecock and Kittansett are very much that way. There is an interesting sequence that can be played at Shinnecock that we have come to call the Merion sequence because if you start on the 14th hole next to the clubhouse the par 5s come early as they do at a Merion East, and you end on the 13th next to the clubhouse. The front nine would be #14, 15, 16, 17, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and the back would be 1,2,3,4,18,10,11,12,13.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 02:41:29 PM by TEPaul »

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2010, 03:03:18 PM »
Tom with respect to the drop hole and its proximity to current 7 fairway, I always believed that there was a green site there but when you consider that the original tee for 7 was on the bluff halfway between 2 green and the river (that tee location is now the championship tee for 7) it doesn't seem to make sense that shots would be played from the area of 3 tee over 7 tee to to a green below. 

 Instead, I think the green for that drop par three was located in the area of the forward tee for current 3.  If you look at the 1940 and 1947 aerials provided by Jim Nagle in this thread http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38381.0/ it appears that the green was set midway down the bluff at the same level as current 7 tee and surrounded by bunkers.  Look at the lower left in those aerials.
The landforms around that area also suggest that there were bunkers there.

Why don't you come out with Wayne one of these days and have a look?

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2010, 03:09:05 PM »
 Rory,

   Give Tom a break ! He can't drag Wayne everywhere ;D
AKA Mayday

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2010, 03:11:57 PM »
Great pictures and I look forward to playing it again. If I recall, the greens were very slick so while they look "tame", putts can surely get away from you. LCC always reminded me of Lehigh. Same type of terrain.
Mr Hurricane

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2010, 03:18:49 PM »
Mike:

  I have spent a fair amount of time with Wayne and met Tom once but have never seen them together so I am ever hopeful. A bit like the old SNL bit when Lorne Michaels offers the Beatles $5000 to show up and play.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2010, 01:53:39 AM »
Joe

Thanks for completing the photo tour - I love how you say #12 is slightly downhill  ;D

I see a few similarities in some holes at Rolling Green

#8 LCC and #14 RG

#16 LCC and #12 RG

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2010, 09:13:51 AM »
Tom and Mike:

  The club history book attributes the original 1900 9 at Rossmere to Reid.  I took the Finegan reference to the 1913 nine (current site) from a secondary source.

Holes 3 through 6 (across the Conestoga River) were not part of the original 18 hole Flynn Course.  In 1938, Roy Eshelman, the benevolent dictator for many years and close friend of Flynn, purchased the land on which those holes now sit.  The Club took an option to buy approximately 30 acres and Flynn designed the holes.  In 1939, the club purchased the land and approved the design.  3-6 were completed in 1941.

As a consequence two par threes on the original Flynn course disappeared (one was located below the location of the current tee for 3, the other was at the Northeastern corner of the property beyond the location of the the end of 13 fairway and green). Two par 4's also disappeared. One led down to the main road in front of the clubhouse and the other played in the other direction (the green at the current short game area was the original nine green).

 I have never reviewed the deed history but I believe that a land swap was also involved in the transaction as 13 was rerouted and portions of the original hole as well the par three northeast of it are lots on what is known as Eshelman Road.

The only holes that are not attributable to Flynn are 2 and 16. 2 originally played straight away. The green was moved to its current location by Billy Haverstick in the 1960's.  Mr. Haverstick was a national caliber amateur and successor to Mr. Eshelman.  16 also played straight away to a tiny green situated on a bluff directly adjacent to 17 tee.  My belief is that William Gordon was involved in this process as he served as the construction manager for the construction of 3-6 and was also actively involved with the evolution of the course (for better or worse in some cases) into the 1970's including the construction of the Sunset Six.

Rory
That is quite an interesting evolution. I reckon 1941 had to be one Flynn's last design projects. You say the only two holes not attributed to Flynn are 2 and 16, are you attributing the original nine to him as well?

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2010, 09:34:02 AM »
Tom

  If you mean the 9 holes laid out in 1913 when the club moved to its present location, the answer is no.
With respect to 2 and 16, key elements of each, ie tee, fairway, remain from the Flynn but the green sites were moved.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2010, 09:37:54 AM »
Rory:

That tome Finegan did you seem to be referring to ("The Centennial History of Golf in Philadelphia) took him quite a while to do and he did it for GAP. In his part on Lancaster GC's history it sure looks to me like he was looking right at some pretty comprehensive club records. On the original 1913 nine at the present site Finegan just mentions it was done by an unmentioned professional who the club paid $100. William Flynn would not become involved with the club and the Lancaster course until 1919.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2010, 10:37:50 AM »
Rory
I found this article in the Philadelphia Inquirer (1/6/1920).

Is there any evidence of a collaboration in 1920 or are we certain it was a Flynn solo job? I know Flynn's very earliest projects are not as well documented as his later work. He was also fairly active as a construction man around that time.

On another thread Mike Cirba threw out the names of J. Harold Wickersham and George Franklin as the possible creators of the 1913 nine. What do you know of these gentlemen?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 10:43:24 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2010, 11:09:48 PM »
"Is there any evidence of a collaboration in 1920 or are we certain it was a Flynn solo job? I know Flynn's very earliest projects are not as well documented as his later work. He was also fairly active as a construction man around that time.

On another thread Mike Cirba threw out the names of J. Harold Wickersham and George Franklin as the possible creators of the 1913 nine. What do you know of these gentlemen?"


Tom MacWood:

What we know about 'gentlemen' of the likes of J. Harold Wickersham and George S. Franklin is that amongst others they were some prominent MEMBERS of Lancaster GC. Or I should say that is what I know about them. Mike Cirba can speak for himself about what he knows about them.

My source on the above is from Jim Finegan's immense tome entitled "A Centennial Tribute to GOLF in Philadelphia" and something of a personal research relationship over the years with friends and members of Lancaster GC. Do you have the book or have you read it and if not why not since you seem to promote yourself as some sort of expert golf and golf architectural historian and researcher? Have you ever even been to Lancaster GC or met a single one of their members or their historians? ;)

That book took Jim Finegan about 4-5 years to write and it was contracted and owned by GAP (the Golf Association of Philadelphia).

It would seem to me from Finegan's section in that book on the Lancaster GC that he was looking at some very specific club records from that club from which he took what he wrote about Lancaster GC's history in his book.

Wickersham and Franklin were just two of a number of prominent men from Lancaster, Pa who started that club in 1900. Wickersham was the vice president and Franklin was the secretary of the club at its founding.

Flynn dealt with these kinds of men at numerous of the clubs that made up the inventory of his architectural career. They probably weren't all that much different than the types of people from the clubs he dealt with over the years like Merion East's Wilson Committee of Wilson, Lloyd, Griscom, Francis and Toulmin, or Shinnecock's Lucien Tyng or Kittansett's Frederick Hood, or Pocantico Hills's J.D. Rockefeller Jr et al or Seaview's and Boca Raton's Clarence Geist or Mill Road Farm's Edward Lasker and on and on and on.

For someone who purports to have historical research ability and knowledge of some of these clubs and their histories it's surprising you don't know these things and have to ask questions like you did above. Perhaps you should begin to establish some working research relationships with these clubs or at least the good historians of them such as Finegan, Morrison et al as some of us have and have to, rather than just depending on your sketchy, indirect and apparently irrelevent newspaper accounts that seem to always be your sole research and analysis M.O.

I suppose it is understandable that the likes of you and Moriarty once upon a time thought you could do this kind of historical architectural research nad analysis in that kind of indirect and sketchy way with some of these significant clubs and their architecture and architects without first or ever establishing a working research relationship with them but one would certainly think by this time you would have woken up to the error of your ways.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:29:05 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2010, 11:30:21 PM »
I recall doing some digging a few years back to see who might have designed the original nine at Lancaster's present site, but for the life of me I can't recall what I found that led me to believe that Wickersham and Franklin may have done it.   Still, I'm pretty sure I didn't pull that completely out of the blue.

So many courses to research, so little time...

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2010, 11:47:27 PM »
What is the possibility you just read about Wickersham and Franklin in the section on Lancaster GC's history in Finegan's book at some point? It was published in 1996.

I'm sure you can recall if you actually went out to Lancaster and talked with the club and its historians, GM or whatever at some point. I know Jim Finegan did and so did we.

Wayne and I did that over the years at different times and in different ways. I did it through the people from that club I've known over the years through tournament golf or golf administration or whatever and Wayne did it in a more direct way. I believe after a good deal of insistence a most important historical architectural "asset" was finally uncovered in a drawer somewhere in the club that hadn't been noticed.

It is just amazing to me and frankly never-endingly humorous that some such as apparently MacWood sometimes find some indirect refererence to some architectural subject of some club and they figure they have just uncovered some theretofore unknown information. But the fact is if they just bothered to establish a good working research relationship with these clubs they would realize the clubs and their historians have had this information in their possession and in their archives since the time it was first printed!  ;)

A good example of that is MacWood's admission on here on a thread he started in 2003 ("Re Macdonald and Merion") that he had found an article or two mentioning that Macdonald and Whigam had helped and advised Merion in 1910 and 1911. He said he found somethng he had never known and apparently he thought he had discovered something important that the club or no one else was aware of-----when in fact the club, its historians and friends interested in its history had always known that information and that this was information had even been liberally noted in its contemporaneous board and meeting minutes in 1910 and 1911!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:56:45 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2010, 12:01:43 AM »
Tom,

Joe and I had Rory and redanman out to Cobb's Creek today, and I'm sure I didn't get the Wickersham/Franklin possible attribution from Finegan's book, because I have that and know he mentions the unnamed pro who helped somehow for $100.

Rory and the club are uncertain who designed that original nine holes.   I certainly don't want this to turn into another speculation-fest, and I'm sure no one else does as well, but if anyone has factual information, I'm also sure the club is interested to hear what might be out there.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2010, 08:37:36 AM »
For a more extensive collection of Lancaster photos from that day, go to Frank Pont's site here:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/Pennsylvania/Lancaster_CC/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2010, 08:44:58 AM »
Tom M:  TePaul is correct. Wickersham as a founding member of the club and the president of Wickersham Printing Company.  He was president of the club from 1904 through 1919. Franklin was in the hardware business. According to the club history, an unnamed pro was engaged to lay out the first 9 holes at the club's current location in 1913 and paid $100.  I would be surprised if the original 9 was anything more than a rudimentary course.  Although the founders certainly were people of means, the club was not awash with money and its development was organic not instantaneous.  Although I think that I could make an educated guess as to who was involved in that process, I simply do not know.

With respect to Flynn, we are confident that it was a Flynn solo.  As alluded to by Tom Paul, we are in possession of the original routing plan. Secondarily, documentation related to the engagement of Flynn exists.  The original engagement lasted for 10 months.  Flynn also developed a grass nursery at that time. The long time green chair, Roy Eshelman (referenced in a post above) and Flynn were very good friends and Flynn returned to Lancaster every year until his death to undertake tweaks to the course and experiment in the grass nursery.  As the aerials show and Wayne and Tom will confirm (indeed Roy Eshelman also confirmed), the evolution of the course took place over a very extended period.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2010, 09:23:48 AM »
Rory
That is very interesting...an unnamed pro. It makes me wonder what Eshelman's source was for that info. I'm assuming the current club records don't reveal a name or a $100 payment. I also wonder what $100 bought you in 1913 in the way of golf architecture. It doesn't seem like a lot of money, even for 1913.

The club has the original plan drawn by Flynn in 1919?

Do you know what year Eshelman joined LCC, and the year he became involved with the green committee? Was he around in 1919-20?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 09:27:18 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2010, 09:30:37 AM »
Rory:

Thank you for pointing out the vestiges of that little drop par 3 (#13) on the 1940 aerial. I guess I was confused with the way that hole was designed on the 1920 plan by Flynn and the direction it went on that plan (more in the direction of the present 7th hole than in the direction of the present 3rd hole). Obviously it was not built in that direction as is proved by the vestiges of it on the 1940 aerial as well as on Dr. P.H. Ripple's 1927 drawing of the course.

I'd forgotten how complicated the evolution and the resequencing over time of that course really is. I was just looking in the Flynn book which is pretty comprehensive on the evolution of Lancaster, at least with Flynn's 25 year involvement there but what I don't know and am somewhat confused about is what if any holes Flynn used or reused from that original 1913 nine on that property.

I can't see much from the club about that original nine hole course before Flynn got there in 1919 and obviously 1919 is a bit early for aerial photography.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2010, 09:45:31 AM »
"I would be surprised if the original 9 was anything more than a rudimentary course.  Although the founders certainly were people of means, the club was not awash with money and its development was organic not instantaneous.  Although I think that I could make an educated guess as to who was involved in that process, I simply do not know."


Rory:

I sure don't know anything about that original 1913 nine on that property either and consequently would hesitate to speculate with any assurance on who that professional mentioned who was unnamed and paid $100 to lay out that original 1913 nine was. But I do wonder who you think it may've been and why.

I would remind that Lancaster GC did hire John Reid to lay out their original nine in 1900 around the Rossmere Hotel, but I have no idea where the Rossmere Hotel was. However, John Reid was most definitely a man who was all over the place and doing all kinds of things throughout that early era around this general area (he did the original Atlantic City and he actually worked as the pro/greenkeeper at Gulph Mills in the late teens before getting pissed off and quiting the club when they brought in Flynn to fix the greens that Reid had apparently planted with wheat).  ;)

So I suppose it is not illogical to assume Reid may've done that original 1913 nine hole course on the present property even though there seems no proof at all of it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 09:47:28 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2010, 09:47:04 AM »
This is from the 1917 Golf Guide. This is interesting because its not often in these guides they acknowledge when a club moved or built a new golf course. I believe the pro Jones is the son of John Jones, who was LCC's pro for three or four years before dying. That is the same John Jones who was the pro at Myopia for a number of years. I believe he succeeded Willie Campbell at Myopia if my memory serves me.

3000+ yds. is pretty decent length back then.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2010, 09:52:10 AM »
"I believe he succeeded Willie Campbell at Myopia if my memory serves me."


Actually Myopia's club records indicate that long time Myopia greenkeeper John Jones succeeded Myopia pro/greenkeeper Robert White in the late 1890s. Willie Campbell's name was attached to Myopia in the late 1890s for a year or so but apparently as a teaching pro and a pro who played tournament golf for Myopia.

TEPaul

Re: Lancaster CC (Flynn, 1921): a photo tour (back nine now up!)
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2010, 09:59:17 AM »
"Do you know what year Eshelman joined LCC, and the year he became involved with the green committee? Was he around in 1919-20?"


Perhaps the club knows when H. Roy Eshelman joined LCC but from the information I have it seems Eshelman was elected to LCC's board shortly after Flynn was hired and he remained as chairman of the grounds committee for the duration of Flynn's 25 years architectural connection to the club.


Rory:

By the way, right around the time Flynn became involved with Lancaster, the Wilson brothers, Columbia's Harban, Inverness's Marshall and certainly Toomey and Flynn with Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture were just beginning to develop and promote what was known as the "bent vegetative process." They assumed it would be and should be the future of American golf course agronomy and Toomey and Flynn had a farm in Montgomery Co Pa that had extensive nurseries of this and other grasses for golf. That would be a bit later but they were beginning around the time Flynn was hired by LCC and their efforts would essentially create the USGA Green Section!

I think sometimes that we today tend to forget just how important and inextricably connected agronomic research and development was to some of the golf projects in that day and age. We certainly saw it with Wilson and Flynn's connection to Philmont in the early 1920s and perhaps it was a factor with LCC too.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 10:16:04 AM by TEPaul »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back