[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Quail Hollow this week. The course was originally designed by George Cobb but has had revisions by Palmer and Fazio twice. Some holes have been rerouted and much of the bunkering and slopes and undulation in the greens were changed. About a thousand trees were culled, most of which were not present when the course was originally designed. I spoke with longtime members who told me about the changes they have seen in the past twenty years. Obviously the routing, for the most part, is Cobb. Is it still a Cobb course? Or is it Fazio? Or is it a Cobb/Fazio hybrid?
When does a course become so different that it no longer represents the work of the original architect?

[Tom_Doak]

If the routing is still mostly intact, I think you have to give the original designer partial credit for the course.


Quail Hollow certainly isn't *just* a George Cobb course, or even very much of a Cobb course anymore, but I don't know why he should be stricken from the record, either.


But that's the long-form version.  If you are just looking to assign the course to one designer, because that's all the space allotted for it, you would probably call in Fazio's now.  There are lots of courses which take short-cuts like that ... for example, Kingston Heath is MacKenzie's, though he changed only one or two holes of the routing.  In such cases, the guy with the bigger name almost always receives the design credit, whether he was the first guy or the most recent.  [For example, New South Wales is also MacKenzie's, even though quite a bit of the routing and most of the features were changed by Eric Apperly, and more recently by Greg Norman.]

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are so many courses here in the UK that have had 6 or 7 different designers over the years. You just have to list them all. Wilmslow is an example.

[Wade Whitehead]

When it's up to the course, they probably just call it whatever gives them the most credibility or advertising bang.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

There are so many courses here in the UK that have had 6 or 7 different designers over the years. You just have to list them all. Wilmslow is an example.

The problem with listing them all is that usually there are at least one or two guys who made some recommendations that weren't followed, or changes that have been totally erased by a subsequent designer.


But you must either err on that side, or leave it to the historians to inject their own bias about which designers mattered most.

[Tim_Cronin]

This is a question those of us who wear reporter's hats, and also value history, grapple with. Two examples, new and old, from Chicago.


The new: Jackson Park-South Shore redesign, if it goes through. All the old course will be erased, but do you call it a Tiger Woods (name on the design firm) or a Beau Willing (who has done most of the grunt work on it)?


The old: Medinah No. 1. Designed by Tom Bendelow. Revised over the years by a handful, including Larry Packard. Then reworked with several new holes and updates of the old (and brilliantly) by no less than Tom Doak. Is it a Bendelow? A Doak? A Bendelow-Doak? I lean strongly to the latter.


What say ye?

[Gary Sato]

What about Augusta? 


Is any MacKenzie left aside from some of the routing?

[Scott Warren]

[For example, New South Wales is also MacKenzie's, even though quite a bit of the routing and most of the features were changed by Eric Apperly, and more recently by Greg Norman.]

And by Thomson & Wolveridge (4th & 18th greens, since replaced by GNGD work) and notably by Newton, Grant & Spencer, who are responsible for the greens at 2, 5, 7-9, 11-13, 15-17 per "Golf at La Perouse". 


Greens at 1, 3, 4, 6, 10 & 18 are all c. Norman's engagement.


And then who knows what happens 2018 onwards...

[Terry Lavin]

What about Augusta? 


Is any MacKenzie left aside from some of the routing?

The zip code, I'd guess, is the same.

[Tom_Doak]

What say ye?

It depends on the context.


If you are listing the designer for Medinah #1 generally, I'd be fine with Bendelow coming first, and then me.  [You're leaving out my associate Brian Schneider, who probably had as much to do with that design as I did; but then we don't know who his counterpart was for Bendelow, either.]


If you were writing a preview for a tournament, though, and you said that the players were matching wits with Bendelow, that would be silly.  None of the greens are his, and maybe only a few of the bunkers, not to mention the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 15th, 16th and 17th are not in the same places as they once were.




For Augusta, on the other hand, who are you going to give it to if not MacKenzie?  The good Doctor is still the one responsible for its most iconic holes [12, 13, 14] and most of its routing, although they changed the numbers on him.  Mr. Jones added enough ponds that he should probably get a mention, and Perry Maxwell, too, for changing the 7th and 10th.  But you could never say that either of them had as much influence on the course today as MacKenzie still does.

[Tim_Cronin]

Tom, nicely put.


And I do like to list associates such as Brian. Bendelow didn't have a regular co-worker as far as I could tell in my Medinah research. He filed weekly progress reports with the club and American Park Builders, right down to amount of seed used, etc.


And yes to MacKenzie at ANGC. As far as I know, Augusta was intended to be played in the current rotation, was switched for the first toonimint, then switched back.

[Ian Mackenzie]

It's kind of like a song.


"Traveling Riverside BLues" was made "popular" by Led Zepelin, but it has always been written by Robert Johnson.


Or, take "the First Cut is the Deepest".
Sheryl Crow tried to bring it back.
Everyone thinks it's a Rod Stewart song.
But Cat Stevens wrote it.


How many courses have been "versioned" over the years by the latest batch of restoration experts? Countless.
Melody and lyrics are always original.

[mike_beene]

But Cat Stevens isn't Cat Stevens now.

[Josh Stevens]

Might also depend on how many were correctly designated in the first place.  Is RMW really a Mackenzie course given he was there for such a short time, or is it in reality more of a Russell/Morcom course?

How many of the courses that bear their names did Nicklaus or Ross actually design?

[Mark_Fine]

I just played Pittsburgh Field Club.  I think every golf architect that ever lived touched that golf course     To me it comes down to the routing.  If that is mostly intact then the original architect has to be given some credit.  Whether anything else that he or she originally designed is still there is another matter.

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