NGLA - Why was it located there?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Paging George Bahto...

After playing NGLA last week for the first time, it struck me that CBM probably had a chance to find a piece of property that would have provided more bayfront exposure for his course when he went searching for the parcel shortly after the turn of the century in rural Eastern Long Island.  Given his experience in Scotland, I would have assumed that characteristic would have been a prerequisite in his search (along with the sandy soil), not unlike Mike Keiser 90 years later.  The result is NGLA really takes on more of an inland feel until you reach the 17th tee, which, if you think about it, is surprising given its location and the holes that inspire it.

Any thoughts on why CBM selected that site?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Scotland's Gift" will give you some insight, but, you make a mistake in assuming that the soil conditions on the entire North shore of the South Fork would have yielded better conditions and views.

Other sites, some by the Shinnecock Canal were considers, but, all in all, I think he selected a great site, especially when you consider that he wanted to DUPLICATE the great holes of the UK..

Finding sites for his Alps, Short, Redan, Bottle, Cape, Leven and others seemed to lead him to NGLA.

[Michael Dugger]

It may or may not really persuade anyone, but do remember the nines used to be reversed.

Hence, hitting the waterfront holes happened in the middle of your round.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The proximity to the railroad, bay, and estate section of Southampton probably had a lot to do with site location.  When he built the club, he needed members for support.  There could not have been an overabundance of wealthy golfers willing to travel hours to and from for a golf game.

[Mike Cirba]

I agree with Robert I think.

Was the original clubhouse (Atlantic Hotel?) a pre-existing building??

I think it's also important to remember that CBM originally envisioned about 90 of the 200 acres he originally secured going to real estate cottages for Charter Members.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike - I had no idea such a large portion of the property was intended for cottages in the original plan.  That does explain a lot, as well as the proximity of the course to the local population and logistical concerns.  I have to remind myself just how difficult it was to travel by land during this era, much less for the sole purpose to play a round of golf!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The proximity to the railroad, bay, and estate section of Southampton probably had a lot to do with site location.  When he built the club, he needed members for support.  There could not have been an overabundance of wealthy golfers willing to travel hours to and from for a golf game.

RMD,

Long Island is so narrow at that point that I don't think it made much difference as to where the railroad and bay were, in relation to the property.
But, as "Deep Throat" said, you have to follow the money and there's no doubt that Southampton was a repository for wealth.

I believe that CBM also considered a site on Cape Cod

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree with Robert I think.

Was the original clubhouse (Atlantic Hotel?) a pre-existing building??

The original clubhouse is..... the current clubhouse.

The Shinnecock Inn was a temporary convenience.

And despite what the author wrote in "Scotland's Gift", I think the clubhouse was always destined for its current location, especially when you consider that NGLA didn't own the land behind # 10 until more recently, and, the fact that the land between # 1 and # 18 NEVER would have been abandoned as an area for a golf hole

I think it's also important to remember that CBM originally envisioned about 90 of the 200 acres he originally secured going to real estate cottages for Charter Members.

Mike, CBM didn't mention anything about taking 90 of the 200 acres for real estate development when he described his plans in an agreement that he drew up in 1904.

Where did you get that information from ?

I don't put the same faith in Newspaper articles that you do

[Patrick_Mucci]

It may or may not really persuade anyone, but do remember the nines used to be reversed.

Hence, hitting the waterfront holes happened in the middle of your round.

Michael,

The order of play was initially determined by the location of the Shinnecock Inn, since initially, the money wasn't available for a clubhouse and the Shinnecock Inn was a convenient facility.

The only waterfront hole on the bay on the entire golf course is the current 18th hole.
The current 14th abutted another body of water until the clubhouse road was established..

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Pat - How do you think the current 14th compares to the original version before the road was put in?  I haven't seen pictures of the original Cape.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoffrey,

What complicates or makes the comparison so difficult is the advent of modern equipment.

The original 14th was altered when the clubhouse was built..

One of the many things I like about the current 14th is the incredibly wavey fairway and the difficulty it presents to golfers trying to hit it in the right area.  All those bowls, ridges, slopes and falloffs make it a real challenge, especially from the new back tee.

And, while the green is fairly flat, there are some great hole locations

When you add in the wind, it's a terrific little hole.

[George_Bahto]

Macdonald searched for a long time for what he considered land with “perfect soil” for his course - from Cape Cod to about Cape May in New Jersey. To him one of the main keys to what he wanted to build was the soil base

Geoffrey, in his book he placed a numerical figure on the “Essential Characteristics” HE wanted to build an Ideal course.

Out of 100, 23% was the nature of the soil

see page 180 in Scotland’s Gift - he breaks it down (like an accountant would)   

[Garland Bayley]

"Scotland's Gift" will give you some insight, but, you make a mistake in assuming that the soil conditions on the entire North shore of the South Fork would have yielded better conditions and views.

Other sites, some by the Shinnecock Canal were considers, but, all in all, I think he selected a great site, especially when you consider that he wanted to DUPLICATE the great holes of the UK..

Finding sites for his Alps, Short, Redan, Bottle, Cape, Leven and others seemed to lead him to NGLA.

What UK hole is Cape a DUPLICATE of?