Rankings and Friar's Head

[Keith OHalloran]

I know that this has been covered before, but Mr. Mucci's ranking topic got me thinking of this again. I have not been lucky enough to play Friar's head, but those that have love it. In addition, the people on this board seem to love it, and I read somehwere that it gets a 9 on TCG. All that being said, Gold Digest does not have it in the top 100 and ranks it 14 in New York. Any thoughts on why this is?

[Bill_McBride]

I don't think it gets a lot of rater play.  I was lucky enough to play it once, and to me it's a Doak 9.  Great set of par 5s that take you from the the upper dunes land to the lower, flatter former potato fields, twice!  I think of them as "The Escalators!"

[Keith OHalloran]

Bill, I guess that is my question, how do they get ranked in New York, but not have enough panelists to be ranked higher?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, I guess that is my question, how do they get ranked in New York, but not have enough panelists to be ranked higher?

I have absolutely no idea!

[Keith OHalloran]

Well that makes two of us! Thanks

[Anthony_Nysse]

Correct me if I wrong, but I beleive that the required number of votes to get a course rated in it's state is much less than to be a Top 100. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Mr. Bakst discourages raters. I know I wouldn't announce it if I got to play FH.

[Keith OHalloran]

Anthony, perhaps you are right, thanks for the explanation

[Bill_McBride]

And let me say for the record that I am not a rater!

[Mac Plumart]

Keith...

I find questions like this very interesting.

Friar's Head is ranked by Golf Mag as the 32nd best course in the world and the 21st best US course, while Golfweek ranks it as the 9th best modern course in the US and on the composite list I keep as the 25th best course in the US.  But Golf Digest doesn't rank it in the Top 100.

Frankly, I track these types of things and see how things change in the future.  In this instance, will Golf Digest come around to Golf Mag's and Golfweek's point of view in the future or will one of them start to drop Friar's Head down in the rankings and converge with Golf Digest.

However, combining this thread with Pat Mucci's thread a few days ago might be interesting to dig into as well.  What are the different criteria used to judge courses by the different entities.  Golf Mag bascially doesn't have any, they just tell their raters to use their gut feel.  And their gut says that Friar's Head is one of the best in the world.  Golfweek seems to have an emphasis on natural courses, "Walk in the Park" feel, etc.  Obviously, along these lines this is one of the best courses in the US.  I will need some help on Golf Digest's ranking criteria...but don't they emphasize resistance to scoring and shot values?  To those who have played Friar's Head, is it more of a ball-buster in terms of difficulty or is it more of a natural minamlisitic course?  If it is one or the other, this might explain the divergence.  If not, I don't know why one of the rating entities diverges so much.

I don't know if this helps Keith, but it is my best shot.

[Andy Troeger]

Correct me if I wrong, but I beleive that the required number of votes to get a course rated in it's state is much less than to be a Top 100. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Mr. Bakst discourages raters. I know I wouldn't announce it if I got to play FH.

As Anthony states, in all likelihood all this means is that Golf Digest doesn't have the minimum number of ratings for Friar's Head to make the 100 Greatest. The threshold is totally different than for Best-in-State. I also wouldn't read too much into its state listing placement.

[Tom Birkert]

Thus far it is the only Coore and Crenshaw course that I have played and I loved it.

It has some wonderful green complexes, a fantastic variety of holes and the new bridge that has been put in behind 15 for the walk to 16 tee really gives you a fantastic view out over the water and provides even more wonderful memories.

The green on 7 is brilliant and there is a mix of shorter holes and long, hard holes (3 and 13 are extremely tough par 4s, and one of them will be playing into the wind).

[Kevin Pallier]

For mine it should be in the Top5 courses in NY.

Tom that's the first I knew about a bridge being put in there - how long's that walk ?

[TEPaul]

"Great set of par 5s that take you from the the upper dunes land to the lower, flatter former potato fields, twice!  I think of them as "The Escalators!"


Bill McBride:


Very neat term there---eg "The Escalators."

That was one of the courses I saw from the very beginning before anything was done or perhaps finally routed. In its natural state it certainly was two completely different auras and two totally different topographical situations. At first I could not see how they were going to make that transition or sort of meld from one to the others and I think that term "The Escalators" is very appropriate and particularly what they did behind #10 green to transition down into the flat again.

I love courses and routings that transition from one highly different and distinct aura to another (good examples are Crystal Downs, The Creek Club) but all-in Friar's might be the most interesting of all of them because of that unusual hugely tumbling dune area and then what was previously flat potato fields.

A bit of trivia I think I mentioned once before. Many years ago I read an article in the Wall Street Journal that mentioned about twenty families in America who had been on the same land for over three hundred years. About ten of them were those Long Island potato farmer families!

[Bill_McBride]

"Great set of par 5s that take you from the the upper dunes land to the lower, flatter former potato fields, twice!  I think of them as "The Escalators!"


Bill McBride:


Very neat term there---eg "The Escalators."

That was one of the courses I saw from the very beginning before anything was done or perhaps finally routed. In its natural state it certainly was two completely different auras and two totally different topographical situations. At first I could not see how they were going to make that transition or sort of meld from one to the others and I think that term "The Escalators" is very appropriate and particularly what they did behind #10 green to transition down into the flat again.

I love courses and routings that transition from one highly different and distinct aura to another (good examples are Crystal Downs, The Creek Club) but all-in Friar's might be the most interesting of all of them because of that unusual hugely tumbling dune area and then what was previously flat potato fields.

A bit of trivia I think I mentioned once before. Many years ago I read an article in the Wall Street Journal that mentioned about twenty families in America who had been on the same land for over three hundred years. About ten of them were those Long Island potato farmer families!

I passed that "Escalators" idea on to the Emperor and he said, "You get it, McBride!"  Then I never heard from him again......

I love courses that go in and out and back to different environments too.  Friars Head is great, Cypress Point is the best!

[George Pazin]

I'd offer the following, next time anyone is questioning rankings in any respect:

WHO CARES?

And that was the polite version...

 

[Emil Weber]

Here its ranked 28th in the U.S. and 51st in the world, which is not as "bad" a ranking as GD gives it...

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=644

[Simon Holt]

i was lucky enough to play FH last Monday.  I absolutely loved it.  It had a feel of somewhere I had played before but I have been unable to put my finger on it.

Great green complexes and bunkering.  Interesting choices off the tee and a stunning new walkway behind the 15th green to the 16th tee made it a pretty special day.  I met Kenny after and he is nothing short of a complete perfectionist.  The whole opportation is fantastic- Adam McDaid does a great job as the Pro and we were made to feel very welcome.

I will post pictures on my return to Scotland.

Oh, and I played Atlantic later that week- I was told they changed the bunkering there after they had seen how great the bunkers looked at FH.

[Matt_Ward]

Keith:

I think the bigger questionmark is how FH is not in the top ten in NY State by GD.

Clearly, there have been enough raters to get the course a state rating. However, for such an acclaimed layout not to be in the top ten really fascinates me.

Maybe thoser who have played the course and are GD raters can explain.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have been fortunate enough to play FH twice now and feel it is improving with age and belongs in the best of the best courses in America club. That could be 8th or 20th depending on ones view. I have long stopped trying to understand GD ratings. I had a few friends from Louisiana with me. We had a glamour few days with Shinny, National and Friers Head being the rotation. I have it third in this group but my friends all thought FH was the best period. What an interesting world it is.

[Bill_McBride]

Keith:

I think the bigger questionmark is how FH is not in the top ten in NY State by GD.

Clearly, there have been enough raters to get the course a state rating. However, for such an acclaimed layout not to be in the top ten really fascinates me.

Maybe thoser who have played the course and are GD raters can explain.

Matt, again it sounds as though enough of the raters haven't seen Friars Head.

Do you think Ken Bakst really cares?

[jim_lewis]

I think we may be overlooking the the most probable reason that GD fails to rank Friars Head high. Perhaps they are just plain wrong. It has happened before.

[Bill_McBride]

I think we may be overlooking the the most probable reason that GD fails to rank Friars Head high. Perhaps they are just plain wrong. It has happened before.

I've only played it once but that was enough to put FH in my top 25 or thereabouts.  I really don't that's the reason, Jim.

[Andy Troeger]

Keith:

I think the bigger questionmark is how FH is not in the top ten in NY State by GD.

Clearly, there have been enough raters to get the course a state rating. However, for such an acclaimed layout not to be in the top ten really fascinates me.

Maybe thoser who have played the course and are GD raters can explain.

Matt, again it sounds as though enough of the raters haven't seen Friars Head.

Do you think Ken Bakst really cares?

Again, this is probably due to lack of ballots. Since GD has 12 courses in NY that are in the 100 Greatest, they really can't place a course that's not in the 100 Greatest ahead of them in the state listing without having conflicting results.

[Mac Plumart]

Andy...

You make perfect sense...I am sure you are correct.

[Keith OHalloran]

George Pazin: While it is easy for people like us to say "who cares" to the ranking, unfortunately they matter. I just got back from bandon Dunes with a bunch of guys who play golf but do not take the in depth approach we do. In simple terms, I would call them the average golfer. It is amazing how much the rankings affect their appreciation, and anticiaption of their rounds. Each person knew (because they read Golf Digest on the way out) that Pacific was ranked first and Bandon next and Trails third. It was astonishing how closely the group would have rated the courses in that order. (I liked Trails best). The point is, we can not just sweep ranking aside, there are golfers that play courses with rankings in mind and therefore their opinions are 80% made before they tee up.

As far as people saying that FH was top when compared to Shinnecock and National, that is what started the thread for me. I have heard that before, yet can't find the course in the top ten of NY!